The Lean Startup Approach

To say that Steve Blank has led an interesting life would be an understatement. He’s had three careers: First, in the U.S. Air Force for four years during the Vietnam War. Next, as a Silicon Valley entrepreneur in 8 startups in two decades (with four IPOs). Currently as an academic teacher at Stanford, Berkeley, Columbia, and NYU. Steve Blank has changed how startups are built; how entrepreneurship is taught worldwide; how science is commercialized in the U.S., and how companies and the government innovate. He is the author of “The Four Steps to the Epiphany,” credited with launching the Lean Startup movement, and the bestselling Startup Owner’s Manual. Welcome to the SuperCreativity podcast, Steve Blank...

 

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Steve Blank 0:47
Thanks for having me, James.

James Taylor 0:49
So your latest, I was gonna say your latest book, The startup manual has been around for a little while. And I just got, I had, I think the four steps of epiphany when I lived in California, someone thrust it into my hand and said this is you need to read this, you need to read the so the starter owner's manual his mindset is kind of brings things a little bit can walk to date as co authored with Bob Dorf. But it's really kind of step by step guide to getting startups right. So it might be useful if just the start if you could just define for us what a startup is, and isn't. And also what you see the role of the startup playing and how America thinks about itself, and how it projects itself to the rest of the world.

The Startup Manual

Steve Blank 1:29
Wow. And then, and then we'll be finished with the semester. So, you know, there are lots of definitions of a startup mine, finally a startup is a temporary organization designed to search for a repeatable and scalable business model, which is kind of different from the way others have defined it. But number one, a temporary organization means the goal of a startup is not to become a startup, meaning don't fall in love with the dogs at work, or the beanbag chairs or whatever. You might. And if you do, then, in fact, you have a small business, not a scalable startup, designed to search and that was the real insight behind lean. That is large companies execute, what do they execute, they execute on the Goldman known business model, that is a fancy word for saying you know who your customers are, and your distribution channel and pricing and how to do customer acquisition, and startups, all you have is a set of hypotheses or, or beliefs. In fact, on day one, a startup is a religious organization, because it's a faith-based organization rather than a fact-based organization. So the distinction between the early-stage venture is you're searching for the truth. You want some evidence that your hypotheses and your beliefs are true. So startup is a temporary organization, did scientists search Well, what are you searching for? Something that's repeatable and scalable. That is the mistake startups sometimes make is hire wholesale sports and say, Hey, here's our opinion, go out and then sell the stuff, and then discover that no one's buying because you didn't find out what that repeatable and scalable model was, that is more salespeople had, or more Google AdWords or whatever, the more sales I should get, or more customers, I sign up or something. And so what you're searching for First, and in most businesses, what's called product market fit that fits between? What are the problems the customers have? And, and what are you? What are you offering them? And, and that's part of something called the business model, which are all the other pieces I mentioned. So that's the long answer. The short question I think you asked is, what's the startup and different types of startups, as I said, they're people who have lifestyle businesses, they're entrepreneurs, and then kind of might have a startup, there are people who have small businesses. And again, those people are definitely entrepreneurs, but they can't raise risk capital, they, they can't hire local people who can attract the best and brightest, etc. But that's okay. That's their goal is to feed their family and maybe their extended family. And then those who want to do scalable startups are the things I kind of have focused on, which is, gee, I want to change the world. And I'm gonna need external capital to do that. Maybe angel or, or, you know, seed, and then maybe tons of capital. Those are the types of startups that make the news and the ones we read about. Entrepreneurs are the ones who do all those things, whether they're small businesses, scalable, whatever. And then there are nonprofits that are NGOs, that could be startups as well and run by entrepreneurs with different sets of goals. And then there are startups inside of large corporations as well and inside government agencies, different goals run by entrepreneurs with different processes. I hope I totally confused you when hopefully, but not your audience. But before

James Taylor 4:52
before we can get into the bit about the can role of the startup and American how America thinks about itself out projects itself. I just want to pause and just Can an eight-year-old startup exist? Or is it, doesn't that really work? It's not really a startup is it all a few years old?

Steve Blank 5:10
Well, the first thing is when we, you know, depending on your audience, if you're talking to people in software and hardware, you might get some eye rolls, because, you know, it's usually a two year old startup attached to a six year old failure that's in the land of the living dead. But if you're in life sciences and working on therapeutics, you know, it's sometimes it might take that long to actually go through, you know, FDA phase one through two or three trials. So So let's be careful about what industry we're talking about. You know, if you're in software, the answer is, yeah, you probably should have been an research lab somewhere for the first five years. So there's no fast and hard rule of thumbs, but it is kind of probably worth considering is why are you spending, you know, six years of your life on something that might not have scaled, and there might be some technical reasons, there are some reasons of your personal passion. Everybody has their own timeout, clock, mine happens to be three and a half years, that is I would, on average, do something and three and a half years, but there is no right number, I have found that number decreasing in 20%, for use by students go 18 months, I'm out of here, there are not some liquidity events, and I kind of go, you didn't even figure out where the bathroom was the names of your, of the rest of the employees. But people said that about me when I bailed after about three or three and a half years. So it really depends on, first of all, are you a founder, a co-founder, you know, are you an early employee? You know, you know, have you found product market fit in the company? Do you think there's a chance of success? are investors still funding you at scale? So there are both business questions and personal questions that one has to ask. And then as I said, Whatever industry you're in life science is very different than hardware and software, different social media is very different than, than the rest of enterprise software, for example.

James Taylor 7:07
So that second question, kind of going back to this idea of, of the strong partnership, or from an outsider seeing that the strong part of the American psyche, no, there was, I guess, the, the people that came to America first went west, they were kind of early entrepreneurs, you know, kind of going finding a bit of land and building something. This idea of the startup now seems to be it's almost like a soft power. It's almost a bit like the the State Department you said Dave Brubeck jazz tree, or out in the 1950s, there was a way of America where it's where do you think startups it's now an American?

Steve Blank 7:46
It's the equivalent of the cowboy movies and Hollywood that used to influence worldwide culture, right? It used to be, you know, people outside the US learned English by watching American movies or, or American television programs and, and got the view that there were cowboys and Indians still running around, you know, chasing each other. I think the, you know, the metaphor again, is still this unbridled capitalism, Darwinian capitalism, that the entrepreneurship and venture capital together kind of represent. You know, it's only recently that that countries in Europe, and some still haven't changed their rules that allowed employee stock options and limited partnerships, etc. And, you know, this, this notion of socialism, versus unbridled capitalism really does strangle innovation, it's crib along with corruption in a number of company countries. And, and, you know, it's just been amazing to me that the politicians in a number of European countries have taken decades to recognize that what entrepreneurship and startups could do for your country. On the other hand, countries like China have now begun to realize what unbridled and uncontrolled investment in maximizing dollars versus maximizing social good have done. And have, in fact, redirected venture capital to go to places that they think are in national interest. I'd be paying a lot of attention to the moves that China has made in the last year or so in kind of reining in where VCs should be putting their dollars. That might be their dumb move, or personally, I think it's a very smart move in terms of aligning national interest and private capital.

James Taylor 9:35
I mean, everybody's a little bit of the East India Company, and whenever 1700s were, there was that kind of blend of, of private capital, I guess, going in and also be much a state state area as well.

Steve Blank 9:48
Yeah, that didn't turn out so well for the people that I definitely

James Taylor 9:51
tend to well for the Indians know, when we took about billions of trillions of dollars worth of, of assets from them But when I first moved to from the UK to the Bay Area 2010, someone gave me Eric Ries his book, The Lean Startup initially, which is which has done we've had Eric here on the show. And because I come from a family of jazz musicians, I'm always interested in finding the roots have an idea like finding the roots of that music and you start listening to Ella Fitzgerald you find out she was really inspired by Dizzy Gillespie. So start lesson Dizzy Gillespie. What we think of today is that lean startup methodology is so many companies so many institutions around the world can promote, seems to be really a kind of a trio of three different concepts from three different minds or creators. Can you explain this evolution of this Lean Startup because some people even think it was just this was Eric, no thing? And then they discovered a little bit later.

The Lean Startup

Steve Blank 10:50
Eric was the Johnny Appleseed, which is a euphemism for the one who planted and proselytize the process. The history was, at least in my mind, pretty simple. You know, after eight startups, I started thinking about the nature of innovation, entrepreneurship, and realize that one of the key tenants of and differentiators of success and failure in startups is whether you were just thinking about ideas in your own head, or whether you got out of the building and tested them as early as possible. That is the old model used to be you wrote a plan, you got it funded, you hired a team, you build something and you'd be shifted, and only then would you discover whether people wanted or cared about it. My simple statement is there no facts in the building, so get the hell outside. And that became a formal process called customer development. And I started teaching a class mad at UC Berkeley in business school. And I invested in a company where it Eric had been a junior engineer, and then another company, where he became the co-founder, I am Vu, and the head of engineering. And I was sitting on their board. And Eric started taking these customer development ideas and start to try to implement them and recognize that customer development shouldn't be Pam paired with Agile engineering. That is in the 20th century, we build products serially a step at a time when in the 21st century, software engineers were building things iteratively and incrementally whether it was didn't matter what your methodology was, but that's where it was heading. And Eric became the first practitioner to pair customer development and agile engineering, and I credit all that to him. But we still weren't clear what it was we were actually solving for and kept saying you need to understand the repeatable sales process and what's customer acquisition. But I ran into the work of Alexander Osterwalder who had come up with something called the Business Model Canvas and his book, Business Model Generation. And it dawned on me, then Osterwalder, there's what's called the Business Model Canvas, a single piece of paper that articulated the nine things you needed to worry about. And he was focused on large corporations was actually the perfect roadmap for a startup to be thinking about. And so I kind of said, well, women, these three components, Osterwalder is working on giving you the map, Eric's observation about agile engineering and my observation about customer development. Actually, the sum of those is what the lean startup is three components, get out of the building, build things incrementally, and iteratively. And here are the things you should test. And so Eric was over at my ranch and staying in one of the cottages. And I said, you really need to write up with his story of how you did this. And what happened, then, what should we call it? Startup? Next thing I know, there's this great book. And, more importantly, Eric was passionate about proselytizing, and like it was religion. And, you know, this might just be some neat academic class if it wasn't for him. And I give him all credit for, you know, he held conferences, he told everybody was the greatest thing ever. He ran some experiments at GE, which we now know, didn't work. But it was a great, great set of experiments. So so I kind of credit the three of us as you said, it was it really was a pickup team of figuring out how to put this stuff together in a way that any entrepreneur looks at it and goes, duh. Isn't the most obvious thing ever. Like, did you have to write some books on it? And then you got no, you don't understand what we were doing before. We were just writing plans and praying to the gods implicitly that we were right. Now we can actually get some early evidence. If you think about it. We're just moving the evidence that we would typically discover later after we burn time and cash just as much earlier in the process. And so we take for granted that's of course how you build an early-stage venture. I don't need a damn book. It's like second nature. Trust me, it was not for those of us open enough to remember, and there are still investors who go, No, I want to read your 45-page plan? Well, you know, I still believe business plans are to be taught in universities, but they ought to be taught in the English department, because the best example, creative writing you're ever gonna do. It doesn't mean you don't need planning. Let me be clear, of course, you need planning. But at first, you need some evidence that in some discipline to discover what are the hard things you needed to figure out? So that's the long answer of, of your jazz analogy.

I completely agree. It was it took the three of us. And now by the way, there are hundreds and 1000s of other people writing books and additional insights building on top of it, jobs to be done and you know, like lean UI, and I mean, you can't not step over one. But they're all built on that foundation that I think Eric I and Osterwalder kind of set and the surprise it turns out 20 years later, it's still some fundamental set of truths. I thought this might be a fad, but went in and out? I don't think so I think now, it turns out that this seems to be the, as I said, kind of like, well, of course. Alright, I'll stop. I'll stop babbling. No.

James Taylor 16:18
mean, there was a great question. That was I mean, the one thing I was I was wondering about, because it feels like this evolutionary thing, as well. And the one thing kind of looking through the book and looking at the index, at the end, there was one word which I noticed was absent. And I wondered, Is this on purpose? Or is this is a difference of opinion? Or what's that, and that word is creativity. You know, but often people think of the, maybe the start of that process. So interesting, because this is obviously, a lot of companies, they talk about this innovation as the word that they use, and I speak a lot younger people who seem to be almost more that word creativity is something and the difference, I'd like to get your sense of, like how they fit or don't fit together. And where you think that idea of creativity fits in to the lean startup methodology?

The Lean Startup Methodology

Steve Blank 17:12
You know, it's, it's a great question. So to me, that's the front end the whole process, right? I mean, what we call ideation, right is how do I come up with ideas? And how do I, G m i creative? How do I learn how to be creative, etc. There's a woman I teach with a professor at Stanford named Tina Seelig, who's written 21 books on the subject. And, and at the first time I met Tina, it was actually kind of a funny interaction. I said, Tina, who needs books? Who needs classes? I said, my problem is like trying to turn it off and pick one idea, you know, I'm always coming up. And she says, Steve, you're an outlier, most people actually need. And then then I realized she was absolutely right. And it wasn't an only I've cut myself on the back, but it's not about me, it's in fact that there really are methodologies and books and whatever the Lean Startup method and the startup owners manual, all kind of assume that that's the front end of the process that's occurring elsewhere. And, and, and, you know, I'll list the other things that you need to do not only need to be creative, but you also need to be agile, you need to be tenacious, you need to be resilient, you need to be incredibly curious, which feeds into to creativity. All those are the front ends of what makes great entrepreneurs, great founders, not touched by the methodology meaning, meaning it's kind of a priority set of given. And there are some great books and methods on how to do that. So left out on semi-conscious purchase purpose, assuming it is the front end of this process. Came to your question, yeah, we'll

James Taylor 18:53
definitely put some links to Tennessee legs work, I think I D School. At Stanford, great, a great institution as well. One of the things I noticed just starting to travel around traveling around the world speaking, especially on creativity is I'd often get I get invited to these innovation labs, whether they're it's kind of state-owned kind of innovation things or whether it's an incubator within a large organization. And it feels like some of them are getting better. But they a lot of them have what you call, I think in one of the books, innovation Theater, which I love a term. So what is innovation theater? And do I was just in one in Ukraine, actually, I just came back from Ukraine, and they have the amazing place that they're building there. And I think that's they're doing things a little bit better than some of the other ones. So what is innovation theater? And where do you see a lot of organizations or governments going wrong when it comes to the kind of creating these innovation centers and innovation hubs?

Innovation Theater

Steve Blank 19:53
Sure, that's a great question, because it ties back to your creativity question. You could be the most creative In the world, but if you don't know how to deliver things at scale, you're also one of the biggest failures in the world as a founder. And for me, and again, you know, no value judgment, but maybe a little value judgment is entrepreneur people who deliver things. And by delivering things, I don't mean demos, I mean, things in the hands of customers or delivering the government deploying and scale to, to the populace, etc, or even the military getting the mounted soldiers or warfighters in the field. It's not the demo, it's not the idea. It's the process that actually solves all the other intangibles about whether it's product-market fit or getting sufficient funding, or in government agencies how to work around the saboteurs or existing processes, etc. Innovation theater typically doesn't happen well, it doesn't happen in startups, because you're 100% focused on shipping. It does happen in incubators, both inside and outside of governments, and by innovation theater is it kind of like the cargo cult, we, we copy the, you know, we copy like the beanbag chairs, and we have lunch, and you could bring dogs to work. But the output is demos and not deliverables. And so my mantra is to know that you might need a demo to convince people to give you money or whatever. But that's not the goal. And unless you are doing large organizations, unless you solve some of the tougher problems first, which is not how to set up the incubator. But how do you set up channel conflict where your VP of Sales said, There's no way you're taking this new idea into by existing customers that don't kill whatever, or the head of marketing says, You can't use the company name that'll destroy the brand, or the legal folks say, oh, we can't do this, like, we'll be sued. Now, I mean, every possible reason to kill innovation that doesn't exist in an early-stage venture. And so you end up with lots of theater, there's lots of smoke, and your CEO takes pictures in front of the beanbag chairs or whatever. Or just like when people visit Silicon Valley, they stand in front of the Facebook sign and think they understand entrepreneurship. Facebook has nothing to Facebook is the Purdue pharma now of startups. But in any case, innovation theater just has lots of smoke, but no fire no deliverables. Does that help? Yeah,

James Taylor 22:21
I mean, I just think you mentioned that word channel conflict. And, you know, when it's if you think about it, in some kind of maybe incubators, the worst thing they're going to lose, people can lose some time, it's going to lose some money. In organizations, they're going to lose some, you know, stock value, let's say if that spin-off doesn't really work. But you're involved also in an area, the Gordian knot center for national security innovation, where you tie it Listen, this stuff, these losses, that we're making these conflicts, these are major con saboteurs, where these things are talking this silo action of, of innovation, is actually going to affect real lives of real people. So as an outsider, this is me, I can say this is a British person that's lived in America as well. It feels like America has kind of fallen behind when it comes to innovation and defense. Can you imagine China comes like China you'd be winning the battle for AI supremacy? Well, a lot of American technologists seem almost kind of caught up with more the making money with NFTs or building the next video app is a remedy for this to be teaching innovation within the different branches of the military? Or do we need to work harder on actually getting people who enter universities to think about starting startups, using their creativity, their ability to innovate, and taking that insight into the military uses?

Steve Blank 23:47
None of the above. And here's, here's why. In fact, I find the problem the US Department of Defense has run into is exactly the problem that entrepreneurs and investors had before we came up with the Lean Startup, which is they don't even have the language or model to describe what the hell just happened to them. And let me explain. You know, since the fall of the Soviet Union, the US was kind of the union power, and we fought non-nation-states like ISIS and al Qaeda, but they never challenged us superiority and weapon systems and whatever we we failed for lots of other reasons. But what's happened in the last five or 10 years, really is a confluence of things we weren't and still aren't prepared to deal with. Let me go through them is number one for the first time in the history of ever. The US no longer owns the technologies needed to deter or win the war. You mentioned a couple of them AI machine learning, autonomy, quantum cyber, even commercial access to space, biotech, etc. All these you know, drones, CMA, drones and rockets and whatever. The DoD has some of them but the best and the brightest don't work for them anymore, then buy them I mean They don't work in what we call FFRDC federally funded research labs, they don't work for the prime contractors. With all due respect to Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, they are not hiring the same people than androl, or even Google and Facebook are hiring, because they can't afford them. So that's number one. Number two, by the way, half those commercial companies are in China. Whoops. Number two is, and this is a little esoteric, the US built up an acquisition model, that is a way to buy things that doesn't allow it to actually buy things that get deployed in less than nine to 20 years. Think about that. We can't deploy major ships or planes or large programs. Yet all the problems and crises we're facing, whether they're China, or Russia and Ukraine, or, you know, North Korea and Iran, they're not waiting around 10 to 20 years

James Taylor 25:50
a disruption, we have the disruptive, we have a what I call an impedance

Steve Blank 25:55
the mismatch between the systems we built, when our adversaries think about it, we're moving at the same clock speed as we were, that is the threats were predictable. And more importantly, the technology was predictable, decades out. And so you could plan to get it out, it wasn't stupid, and accurately matched what the environment looks like. The problem is the environment has changed. But the Department of Defense hasn't even gotten their heads around that lots of these things have changed. Technology's changed the notion of time that is we need to be building systems and having processes that could operate in less than five years. And it's not that people don't get it. And here's the point about lean startup versus what's the DOD needs. Everybody in the DoD who understands this is trying to hack the system individually. They're they're writing special contracts called OTAs. They're standing up rapid capability groups that is every service has this, but they're hacks to the system. Rather than understanding Well, wait a minute, can we need a different language and processes to describe this? And the way I kind of summarize this is the US Department of Defense has world-class people and processes, world-class, unfortunately, they're for a world that no longer exists. It's a big idea. And so what I'm working on this Gordian knot center and Gordian knot, for those who not familiar with it refers to the idea of cutting through most intractable problems with unique solutions is basically how to give the DoD a different frame a different language and toolset to think about No, no, no, you don't need to make a better version of this process, you need to get your head out of that this is different than then what we're encountering now. And it's so different, you don't even have the words to kind of describe what's going on or understand the processes needed. And that's what we're trying to do. That's the long answer to a short question of what the hell happened to the US Department of Defense?

James Taylor 27:53
Well, I understand that here in the UK, they're in the process of creating, I guess, our version of a DARPA here, and, and also kind of looking probably across the side of the pond in terms of how things could be developed much faster, much more agile, as we start to finish off here. You mentioned this in what we were talking about earlier, where you're kind of a little bit of an outlier, I think probably about 40% of the population say that they consider themselves to be creative. And but 6% don't, so we can have to kind of work on that 6% Even though there, I believe we're all kind of born with this kind of creativity. But for you, how do you keep your thinking fresh? What influence do you try to surround yourself with in terms of people place in order to keep that creativity bubbling the whole time?

Steve Blank 28:43
That's a great question. And probably, you know, how many what underlies the answer I'm about to give you. And I think it's true of all great founders not saying I'm one but it is a common theme is they're intensely curious about a lot of things. And that's the first question I ask is, you know, what are you interested in? What kind of hobbies do you have, and whatever, I'm interested in a lot of stuff. I mean, I could tell you about particle physics. And, but, Carty and, you know, and, and CRISPR. And at the same time, you know, and how I, how I do this is I teach, and I teach students much smarter than myself, you know, just teaching at Stanford, in the engineering school, your head explodes at the same time, at the other side of the campus teaching and national security policy. And also at the same time, I'm sticking my head in places I have no right to beat whether it's national security or biotech or, or, you know, semiconductors and whatever, but in doing that, it forces me to kind of learn the language and you know, start reading going back to the books, and that's the second thing is I read voraciously. You know, just general business stuff but a lot of technical things and a lot of barriers and, and I consider Myself, probably an inch and a half deep on a lot of subjects. But, but certainly, enough to do, which is the third piece, pattern recognition across all of them. And I think I've only had in my career, two skills and one of them is to ingest an enormous amount of data and to is to run a neural net across the data, and pick up patterns that some people miss. That's what the lean startup was, by the way is, is I didn't invent anything, I was able to see a pattern that other people had missed, then I worked on that multiple times.

James Taylor 30:37
But one of the things you start and you see this, you set a timer at the time again, is this idea of getting out of the office to go out and do things so I'm always interested as well as how to find these different sources, different things. So you can spot these patterns. Where are you do I know you have real love in terms of the environment, you know, you outside of your you're working in entrepreneurship and academia, in terms of land that you're surrounded by as well? Does that play a role in your creativity, this idea that the genius loci that places themselves, can inspire you?

Steve Blank 31:16
When it isn't rational, but sometimes solitary, the opposite. Part of that is actually putting yourself into situations where you haven't been invited. You know, 80%, of being successful is showing up more than most people. And I did a lot of that is, it's gone to conferences and meeting people, we're seeing things you've been reading about, but then actually getting your hands dirty, try to do it or see it or go to a factory or go to a whatever you go, Oh, this is what that paper man, holy cow. This is a compliment. Listen, you can read about the semiconductor supplies shortage all you want. If you've never been in a bunny suit and walked through a fab, you have no idea. Like, this is the most complicated thing that human beings have ever made. And it's like, oh, yeah, we should build some more fabs, you have no idea what it takes, or Oh, yeah, we'll just order some more wafer fab equipment from applied material. No, you're ASML. And I just pick on that is that, first of all, getting out of the building really means you need to get and not just read, but immerse yourself in some of these things. And then you start seeing patterns across some of them. The second part about the land connection is I grew up in a 600-square-foot apartment in New York City. My parents were immigrants. And it wasn't until I came out to California, then I realized, oh, yeah, you're gonna walk for miles and like, that's the traffic light, or see a car or whatever. And then you could walk for more miles, and then you can realize your loss, but you can still turn around and go back, and I got lucky enough to be able to, you know, have a place on the coast of California where I could do that. And I think, you know, part of my thinking is being able to take all that data back home, and then just take walks in the woods or along the ocean and start letting that neural net kind of in the back of your head run and start thinking about well, wait a minute, maybe this is connected to this in some interesting way. We're gonna answer a question.

James Taylor 33:21
Yeah, yeah, I guess you're getting part of the worldwide would, there is when you're in the forest. Steve, like blank, it's been a pleasure having you on the show that the book, The Startup Owner's Manual, and the Four Steps to the Epiphany are out now we'll put links to those if people want to find out more about some of your other work, where's the best place for them to go and do that?

Steve Blank 33:44
Well, the I have a website called Steveblank.com. Probably not hard to remember. And I'm laughter set of categories of information. On the top are a couple of tabs with books, and, and videos and other things. And if you're interested in how Silicon Valley got started, there's even a tab on the secret history of Silicon Valley about a couple of surprises that you might not know about. So, so go to the website. And I think you might be amused and maybe educated

James Taylor 34:17
is a great, amazing director of resources. I mean, when I came to the Bay Area, I was on your site a lot, looking and clicking all the links and discovering all these amazing things. Steve Blank. Thank you so much for coming on the Super creativity podcast.

Steve Blank 34:31
Thanks for having me, James. This is fine. Great question.

James Taylor 34:33
You can subscribe to the Super Creativity Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts while you're there. Please leave us a review. I would really, really appreciate it. I'm James Taylor, and you've been listening to the super creativity podcast.