Elaine Pofeldt: Strategies for Creating a High-Revenue Business

Whether you've launched your own e-commerce endeavor, built your own professional services firm, sold online courses or membership programs, or are just itching to flex your entrepreneurial muscles, starting a small business - a company with 20 employees or fewer - is a rewarding way to earn a living and get creative. In Elaine Pofeldt's new book 'Tiny Business, Big Money' she reveals the strategies for creating a high-revenue microbusiness. In it, she reveals insightful profiles of nearly 60 micro-businesses that hit $1 million in annual revenue including 49 that hit seven figures with either no payroll or very small teams. Elaine is a journalist specializing in entrepreneurship and is also the author of The Million-Dollar, One-Person Business. Her work has appeared in CNBC, Fortune, Forbes, Money, and the Tim Ferriss Show

 

 

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Artificial Intelligence Generated Transcript

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Elaine Pofeldt 1:00
thank you so much, James, it's great to be here.

James Taylor 1:03
Nothing This is possibly your second time that you've been on the show you came on last time talking about the million-dollar one-person business. And now you're on this new booth, fantastic new book, tiny business, big money. So I have to say something. First of all, I'm maybe a little bit biased here, because you did actually kindly include me as one of the case studies in this book, but perhaps would be helpful, maybe just to begin by defining what is a business, a tiny business and what isn't a tiny business.

What Is A Tiny Business?

Elaine Pofeldt 1:30
Sure. And thank you so much, James, for sharing your story, because I got a great response to it. A lot of people learned so much from how you built your speaking business. And I really appreciate that on behalf of the whole entrepreneurial community you did share some of your secrets. The tiny business as I define it, and as some government entities would define it, under the rubric of micro business would be 20 employees or less. Some government entities say it's 10 employees or less. But for the purposes of the book, it's 20. And I looked at those that were getting to seven figures in annual revenue, with a very small team, either they ran payroll in the business, or they had contractors and extended team of contractors that function almost like employees where they had a Monday meeting and the trappings of having employees.

James Taylor 2:23
So basically the first book, The previous book, there's a million-dollar one-person business. That was I guess, more the kind of solo sort of printers for those businesses that achieved this kind of high revenue businesses. So it just clarified how is a tiny business, though different from that solopreneur, or a Silicon Valley kind of startup-style of business, or maybe other types of businesses we kind of see in the industry?

Elaine Pofeldt 2:46
Well, there's some connection between them, James and the in the million-dollar one-person business, I look at nonemployer businesses, these are the ones that don't run payroll. But what happens with a lot of them is that they use contractors and the contractors play a bigger and bigger role in the business. And then all of a sudden, they're working for the business 40 hours a week, and the owner says, Hey, wait a minute, I should put them on the payroll. So they sort of they're in the same group of very small businesses, they're just at different stages, the tiny business is a little bit more formal in terms of the owner needing to put systems and processes in place so that everybody knows what they're supposed to be doing. Everyone knows what a well-done project looks like. And things are done in a way that can happen even if the owner isn't giving orders or directions or things like that. Maybe they've documented the processes, for instance. And that's what we're looking at in the new book.

James Taylor 3:47
It seems to be this. One thing also kind of links them to the previous book, will you focus on the previous book, this kind of solopreneurs is high revenue solopreneurs. And in this book is they both seem to want the founders of them both to want freedom and control. There are these two things that seem to be kind of playing out throughout the course of many of the case studies in the book.

Freedom And Control

Elaine Pofeldt 4:10
That's true. I noticed in both books, many of the entrepreneurs are students of Tim Ferriss and the four-hour workweek. And I have yet to find one who actually achieved the four-hour workweek. There are a few that are close that are like five or six hours a week. But they use automation. They use contractors, they use outsourcing some of the things that he was an early forerunner in talking about they've applied it and I feel like to some extent, some of these profiles are really a testament to how ahead of his time he was when that book first came out. It was more than 10 years ago. I think it was 13 years ago. So that's been kind of interesting for me to see.

James Taylor 4:54
It's interesting as well. You know, I remember spending a little bit of time in Chiang Mai in Northern Thailand and going to Some of the incubator spaces and their collaboration, co creation spaces there. And I think pretty much all of them had started on that journey after reading Tim's book, it was good. It was so amazing to me that this great legacy these kinds of left of this and enough that people like Chris Guillebeau came across from a slightly different perspective as well. What notice, what difference did you notice, though, between maybe that kind of businesses who were in that first book, the kind of solopreneur style business, no payroll style businesses, and the more the business you featured in this book, which does have some kind of payroll or the using more extensive use of contractors or to

Elaine Pofeldt 5:41
some extent, James is the owner's preference, I found in the first book, a lot of the owners actually preferred to not have employees, they like the complete freedom that came with that the ones in the second book, realize that it was too hard to keep things going and to keep the business growing while maintaining that level of complete independence and that they were well served by having a regular team to help them they still have freedom. It's not like they gave it all up, but they did need to have some sort of structure to the business so that they could have freedom, you know, that they could add on a whole bunch of new customers and know that they could get the job done, and not miss deadlines and deliver the deliverables the way they're supposed to be sent to the customer. Without doing it at all, personally.

James Taylor 6:35
It was interesting as well, in the book, the bank, you have this appendix there, which is almost, you know if someone's just thinking, Okay, I've no idea what kind of business I want to start, I want this kind of business, I want it to be maybe a smaller team, maybe just myself, my partner, maybe some contractors, which industry action. Should I kind of get into it? You actually answer that question in the appendix it details about what's in that appendix how that data came about?

Choosing Industry

Elaine Pofeldt 7:03
Oh, my goodness, James, you know, I like to geek out on data. And this is based on US Census Bureau data, but I think it has international implications, because the main industries are pretty consistent around the world, for the most part. You know, for instance, manufacturing, almost every country has manufactured. What I did with my team was, we calculated the average revenue for every industry code in the United States and the average payroll, and then we subtracted the average payroll, to see which ones had the most money left over. This doesn't mean that all that money leftover was their profit because they have other costs. Maybe they have to rent a building, for instance. But it gives you a sense of how much money there is to play within these businesses. And it was just so interesting to see because these are very small businesses. The number one for zero to four employees was casinos. Oh, new, right. You can actually run a casino with less than four people. I'm not recommending that business because it's so specialized. Some people might have objections to casinos, etc. But it just gives you a sense of where the money is flowing. The second one was butter creameries. They're very automated and I thought, Well, no, this is something that you could sink your teeth into if you're looking for the next artisanal trend. The third one was ethanol. It was ethyl alcohol manufacturing. But what I found was there a lot of Millionaire Next Door type businesses on this list serial manufacturing and business to business, e-commerce. I didn't stop there though, because I felt like we needed some subjective interpretation to help guide people to the right categories for the average smart person. And I concluded one of them was eCommerce when example would be a pervert Batra, he founded a business called flexible pouches and he sells the plastic bags inside of cereal boxes, and pharmaceutical products. It's a very unsexy business. There's no way around it. You're not going to talk about those plastic bags at a cocktail party. He but he's a 29-year-old guy. He used to be a chevron engineer. He wanted to have his own business and he set it up so that everything is done online. So it's business to business, e commerce as well as manufacturing and wholesaling, which were two of the key categories. He loves traveling all over the world. He is a typical Tim Ferriss guy, I forget how many countries he's been to but something like 30 or 40. He can run this from anywhere. It's all automated outsource to beautiful little business brings in 3 million in annual revenue a year he did it as a million-dollar one-person business when I first met him, and then it grew and he needed a couple of people to keep the trains running on time. And so he's one of the guys that made that transition. I mentioned manufacturing is really interesting because I would imagine, with your focus on creativity, a lot of your audience is very inventive. And people might come up with a widget or something they want it

James Taylor 10:16
is a great story, you tell the start, which is this group of people, they kind of started it, I think it was three founders to be creative founders. And they, they came up with this new game, which was an after hearing about why they were invented. That seems like such an obvious thing to read. But it was a really nice story about how they kind of prototype it found a manufacturer. So maybe we can share a little bit about that. Because I think if anyone that's maybe listening to this as they're in their into like, you have some kind of creative business manufacturing in some way. I think this is a really useful case study.

Elaine Pofeldt 10:52
I love these story games. The fellow is named Chris Mead. And he's also in his 20s. He was a film student in college. And then he got a job selling for Uber Eats, he was doing cold calls all day long. Wow, had a grueling commute in from Brooklyn, to New York City to Manhattan. And he knew there was more for him in life than this job. He wanted to have his own business. But he wasn't sure how to get out of the daily grind. And then one day, he was with his brother and a friend of theirs. And they were watching sports on TV and the volleyball highlights came on. And one of them said, Wouldn't it be cool to have a four-way volleyball game kind of like Foursquare, wherein the quadrants, there would be a person in each quadrant, and they experimented with it themselves, because they like sports and, and it seemed like it worked. They actually had bought two volleyball nets from Walmart, and they just kind of overlapped them. Then one of the partners, the friend wound up creating a prototype, he had a background in engineering. And they manufactured it using contacts they found on Alibaba. And then they use Chris's called calling skills that he had developed that Uber Eats to call retailers. And he got the product into Scheels, which is a Midwestern sporting goods store in just two locations. And then they sold out. So the company ordered them for all of its locations, I think it had about 28 at that time. And the rest was history. Basically, it's all over the place. It's about a $15 million company. And they built it with just mostly their friends in the beginning. And they were traveling all over the place, you know, as a little group, and they would stay in Airbnb is, again, very much the Tim Ferriss lifestyle, but they're manufacturers. And it's been a beautiful little business. And it's a pretty simple invention when you think about it, but

James Taylor 12:55
that's what I saw, I thought why did no one invent this like seems like such an obvious thing. But that's what's great about it.

Souped-up service business

Elaine Pofeldt 13:01
It's really cool. And another area that I found interesting, I call it the souped-up service business. A lot of people don't want to trade time for dollars. Right? You and I are in businesses where you could get paid by the hour theoretically, but it's not very profitable that way because if you are proficient in something, you get very efficient. So that works against you. One example that I loved was Jenna Kutcher, who, she's a photographer she was doing shooting at weddings. And then she wanted to cut back on that it was just a little too much. So she started doing courses and sort of making money through the courses. But where she really started making money was she started posting her photographs on Instagram with little vignettes about mostly their photos of her family. She's got a young family with really cute little kids. And her following grew to like 800,000 on Instagram, and then she started getting advertising from that built it into a multimillion-dollar business. And yes, she's still a photographer, and maybe she shoots the occasional wedding. But that's not really what the business is anymore. It's the courses plus the Instagram advertising that really brings in the revenue. And I said that's a great example for a lot of people who have businesses already. And they feel like you know, I'm kind of stuck in the zone of making two to $300,000 a year, but I can't really get out of it. It's really monetizing your knowledge in different ways. Sometimes people will, besides doing a course may be a mastermind, or you could do a paid webinar. That's a way to scale your messaging and reach many more people than you could meet in one hourly session no matter how much you charge.

James Taylor 14:43
Yeah. Remember in the book you also mentioned, think it was silly to sue, who can a publicist we think is a very transactional kind of thing you know, trading time for your time for money, and she can create a series of masterminds and courses from that and also the other thing I thought was nice was that there was quite a lot of case studies of those workers who are in their 50s or 60s, even 70s, who are starting these businesses, one of the ones I seem to remember was, I think it was a lady who was in the kind of virtual assistant space. And so she was like one of these kinds of professional services people that created took into the creative intellectual property in some way in order to create courses. I thought that was a really nice case study as well. I loved

Creative intellectual property

Elaine Pofeldt 15:31
her story, Kathy Grogan, our and she's got a huge following. Now she's in her early 60s, she worked at one of the telecom companies in the 90s. And at that time, things were not great for women in corporate, she was in marketing and, she wanted to get a promotion. So her boss said, you know, you could put yourself in line for a promotion if you get an MBA. So she went, it's been a couple of years getting the MBA at night, weekends, etc, came back into him when she finally got it was very proud that she had earned it and wanted a promotion. He said, Well, the real reason I didn't promote you is you laugh and smile too much. And she just, it was like a, you know, a punch in the gut. And she couldn't believe it. And she got so mad, she decided to leave and start her own business. And at first, she was selling candles, she was doing direct sales. And she didn't like it involving a lot of travel. But she had because of her marketing, she had blogging skills. And so she started helping this one real estate broker with his blog, and he said, you know, a lot of brokers need this. We're all into content marketing. She began scaling it by doing presentations for real estate brokers. Then she had so much work, she started bringing in people to help her who were like her assistants, but they were admin, she views it, virtual assistant. It's more of like a skilled professional, sometimes they make $150 an hour. And what she found was a lot of them were great at doing the actual work but did not know how to run a business. So she started creating courses and Masterminds for people on how to run the business itself. You know, how do you manage client expectations and manage your hours so that you're not available? And on call every single minute of the day? And how do you charge appropriately? And that's what her business became? Now she does really, really well, I mean, some of her courses, or masterminds are over $15,000. And when you think about it, they're the virtual assistants who are paying for it. So it must be worth it. Or it'll say when being able to invest in it.

James Taylor 17:33
And I guess another point I noticed in the book where a lot of the case studies, you see these people that built these tiny businesses, big money, you know, high revenue money, can businesses, they, they didn't get there straight away. It wasn't like an overnight success. They had to kind of try to how many years would you say on average, it took a business owner to go from starting that new business to kind of hitting the kind of levels we're talking about that kind of higher kind of million-dollar-plus levels?

Value of patients

Elaine Pofeldt 18:02
Well, it funny that you asked James because I did a survey on about 50 of the entrepreneurs in the book, who got to seven figures. And on average, it took four years, and on average, they hired the first employee in four years. I do not know why that is, that would require further study. But it did tell me about the value of patients. And I have some other data in, you know, from that survey. 100% of them use contractors. And I thought that was really interesting. 90% use automation. So I think these are folks that are leveraging some of the tools available to them to really accelerate the process of growing the business. So maybe if you didn't use those tools would take longer. But for them, this seems to be the sweet spot is the four-year mark.

James Taylor 18:52
Yeah, cuz I know it's in the book in you look at them, they run pretty lean businesses. They're not kind of the businesses that are advertising necessarily everywhere. You're seeing everywhere that there's the millionaire, that next door type businesses, many of them. They're highly profitable, a lot of them. And you can put them into three groupings. You said some of them focus on using automation to a very high level. Some of them as you said, use contractors and then use a third group which is going to automation plus, so to what is automation plus?

automation plus

Elaine Pofeldt 19:22
Well, what I found was there is a progression in terms of going from the solopreneur stage to where these businesses are. So you know automation would be just the pure using tools to extend what one person can do and some people never go beyond that. Brijesh Riva saba. He has a business called price series where he does reports for investors and he was able to automate a huge percentage of the work in that business. So he never really needed other people except to do some of the tech work upfronts. Then there's automation plus contractors where maybe there's some work that requires a human touch. So you start adding on, maybe you need a social media person, instead of just using social media app to help you, you need a little bit more of those soft skills, and creativity, then what happens a lot of times is they'll go to automation plus employees, because they start realizing, okay, I'm paying these contractors $100 an hour. And now I use this person for 30 hours this week, that's not very profitable. Let me make a deal with them where maybe I pay them less per hour, but they have the security of a paycheck, and figure out what that looks like, or their labor laws and they have to put them on payroll because they're controlling the hours they work, they want them to come into the office, this depends on the country, what the definition of an employee is that they its compliance for. So then what often happens is they get rid of the contractors entirely because it's just much more efficient. Now, when the team gets a little bigger to have primarily employees. And then sometimes they'll go to partnerships, there was one fellow who runs a company called Lawson hammock, and he was, he's an outdoorsman. And he found these seamstresses to actually, so these outdoor sleeping hammocks for him, but it was tremendously inefficient. If they you know, of course, we'd all love a hand, so an outdoor sleeping hammock, but, but if he got more orders, he would get backed up. So he found local partners who were good at running the back end of manufacturing businesses. And they became Equity Partners, he still owns it. But he had a background in commercial real estate, which is booming right now in the United States. So he went back into that part-time, and they manage the back end in exchange for the upside. So that's another option for people as you bring in people to handle the stuff you don't want to do, or you don't have the expertise. They're there. They got him hooked up with overseas manufacturers, and he doesn't have to deal with that part.

James Taylor 21:58
There's so many great, I mean, there's a lot of case studies, and so that and you can, every time I'd read them, I like I want to, I want to send that case study to this person, or I want to tell this person about the book, which I think is a great thing about having, you know, this many case studies in the book, one of the other things I noticed towards the end of the book a little bit because I know you're into the data of it, you pulled out this bit of data, you notice that the vast majority of these tiny business owners 88% exercise in some way yoga, gym strength training of some way. So So I wondered, okay, are they? Are they better built these businesses? Because in exercising and doing this, it kind of gives them that patience, that fortitude? Or is it because they've built a business that allows them the time to focus on their health? I don't know what your thoughts are on that? Well,

Health And Business

Elaine Pofeldt 22:51
that's really interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. Well, I have seen in a lot of surveys of small business owners, they feel healthier than they did incorporate. And that might be because they have time to exercise. When you think about it, a lot of these very small businesses run from someone's home. So instead of commuting somewhere, maybe get back an hour or two a day where you can go for a walk or go to the yoga class you've been wanting to go to. I do think though they think of their business as a practice, there's a lot of value in showing up. And that's something you learn from many different types of exercise from I know, I do yoga and martial arts. And they're sort of a mystery to when you will learn things. Sometimes you've come into a class, I know for instance, with yoga, there's this position called the crow, I know you do yoga to where you're sort of balanced on your, on your hands, and you put your knees on your elbows. And a lot of times I would face plan, really, for the first three years, I tried to do that posture, I just couldn't do it. And I gave up I actually just would try it. And I would try to put like one knee on my elbow sometimes. Then one day, I just came and could do it. I had no idea why on that day, I could do it. But from that day on, I could always do it. And then there are little add ons, you can go from that into the handstand, I mean, the headstand and then you know, you shoot out into the Chaturanga, and so on. You'll never get to that point, if you don't keep showing up. And I think in a business, it's like that you might just not know how to handle some aspect of the business. But if you keep on working on it, I'm sure with you with your public speaking for instance, here, you know, there are certain probably stagecraft things that you've been working on in your head for years, and you can't figure out what to do in this situation. And one day, you just have a moment of inspiration, and it's solved. But that's what these folks did with these tiny businesses. They kept showing up consistently. It doesn't mean every single day of the week, but on a very regular basis. They worked on it as opposed to oh, I've got a great idea. I'm going to work on it someday. Well, I'll work on it for this weekend and hope to get the whole thing launched and then never coming back to it for another three months, you won't get anywhere with that approach. So I think exercise does teach you that mindset of just consistently showing up.

James Taylor 25:14
You mentioned that word inspiration as well. How do you keep your own thinking fresh? What influence did you try to surround yourself with in order to kind of keep that, that creative mind that creative muscle going?

Keeping your own thinking fresh

Elaine Pofeldt 25:26
Well, I am surrounded by kids, I have four kids ages 11 to 18. And their influences are very stimulating, you know, because they're, in a way, they're almost two different generations, my son is 11. And he's the generation where he talks to the computer, whereas my older girls are 18. And they grew up typing, you know, and so just seeing things like that the different ways that they use technology is really interesting, plus all their friends coming in the house, etc. I mean, don't forget, it's been COVID. So normally, I would say I go to business events, and I, you know, network with diverse entrepreneurs of all different ages, demographics, etc, which is true, but I couldn't do that as much during the pandemic. But I do interview a lot of people I love. I love talking to entrepreneurs, I have no idea why I got hooked on this. It was maybe 10 years into my career, I worked as a fashion editor Women's Wear Daily, and I found I really enjoy talking to fashion designers. And then that led me to work on Success Magazine, and then to Fortune Small Business Magazine. And I found that each one had such an interesting story. I just never got tired of the details of it. I saw a lot of parallels between them. And artists. And a lot of my friends were writers, artists, musicians, people like that. And I just intrinsically understood them. They were making something out of nothing. You're synthesizing their life and all the influences around them. And I think talking to different people, I really do try to talk to entrepreneurs of every possible life experience because you start to see different things than you would just normally see as yourself because you go through life just as one person. So I have the benefit that you do to like with your program where you get to just talk to a lot of people. Yes,

James Taylor 27:11
I was listening to a podcast and I was actually listening to Tim Ferriss's Show the other day, and he was interviewing Margaret Atwood, the author, who has been Handmaid's Tale and he asked if you think she's in a 70? I think you 72 Now, and he said, You're so vibrant. You're so alive, you're so will your Britain, You're so bright in terms of thinking and different perspectives? What is it? How do you actually just put down to one word, which was this word, curiosity, you know, being interested in other people being interested in how things were? I don't know what you know, you've got that side as well from your journalistic side of asking questions. And she then proceeded to go on and say, Actually, it's all about, you know, Sagittarius being aligned with something else. And she went, Oh, that's one of those. I'm also sure if I get that part, but there's definitely I think something you have, there's that curiosity, being interested in people wanting to know their stories.

The hidden pocket of genius.

Elaine Pofeldt 28:05
I think people are really entertaining. I mean, in any situation, there's a lot of humor just said to human behavior. And our foibles and everything else, I just don't get tired of it. I don't watch TV at all. I don't even know how to turn my TV on to be honest with you, because my husband has five remote controls, it usually requires him to get it on. So I just don't bother. But I do. I guess my entertainment is just talking with people and understanding what makes them tick. I also believe that every person has a hidden pocket of genius. And a lot of times they don't know what it is. And I always have a determination to figure out when I talk to them what exactly that is, and no person has ever disappointed me on this.

James Taylor 28:50
I think. Yeah, I think that's great as well. But we have we had a guest on a little while back, who wrote a book called The travel tribe, all about the history of travel writers. And he was saying that a lot of people thought the travel, the days of travel writing had gone because anyone can go on Google Maps now. And they can look at a map of that place and see what that thing is. They can watch videos, YouTube videos of people or bloggers talking about places, but he said the one thing, which is still there, and he feels it'll be there forever in travel writing is the journalistic side is that that knowledge that when you go out, you travel somewhere, there's six or 7 billion people, each of them has their own stories and your kind of job then as a writer is to ask the questions and listen to their stories. And then as you said, find that genius find what is that thing, and then share that with other people who said that way said travel writing will be going forever.

Elaine Pofeldt 29:46
Oh, that's true. And there's also a point of view. Everybody's got a unique voice on my other hand is as a ghostwriter. And one of the things I work on a lot with people is understanding you know, what is their voice? What is their point of view and how it's how you synthesize everything that's happened to you that makes the presentation interesting? And that's where the artistry is finding your own unique voice. And sometimes it takes someone to help you. Because you just don't know what's interesting about yourself. I find that all the time as a reporter when I'm, you know, I'm talking to people, some people in the book will tell you, some of these interviews turned into a five or six-part miniseries because we started getting into the heart of things, as you know, as to everything about what they've done. And there's a lot to it. And that's, that's their point of view. And that, and to me, that's so interesting. And that's, you know, it's where we connect as human beings, right is if we can express that point of view, then we can bridge all the gaps between us and really connect on a very deep human level.

James Taylor 30:51
Now, you spoke about how a lot of these businesses use automation. So do you use technology in ways that either can free up your time for creativity or help you to augment your creativity?

Technology

Elaine Pofeldt 31:02
I use it in pretty simple ways. Like I'll use your schedule once to schedule my time you know, things like transcription apps, and you know that that type of thing I use bench which is powered by AI for my bookkeeping, because I was finding that was a big drain on my time, I'm not particularly good at bookkeeping, and I wind up wasting time I could be writing. And then I else I actually a podcasting host told me he loved bench and I wound up just outsourcing it to them. And you just basically attach all your bank accounts and things like that to their tool, and then they handle it, there's a live person involved, but you don't have that much contact unless you really needed so. So you're basically having high-level conversations with them. And all the tedious stuff is done by machines. And that's been a game-changer. I'm constantly auditing to see if there's more stuff that I can do. You know, my phone has a zillion apps on it.

James Taylor 32:03
I guess it gets rid of some of those tasks. Well, the book is fantastic, Tiny Business, Big Money, I will put a link here so you can get their copy of the book. If you want to learn more about you Elaine and your other books, you're other writing, where's the best place to go and do that

Elaine Pofeldt 32:18
you can go to my website, ElainePofeldt.com, or tinybusiness.com. Or if they write to me on LinkedIn, I will write back out when it's under my full name. That's a good place. I'm also on Twitter and Facebook if you prefer those social media, under my name and on Instagram under million dollars one-person business. And please do right because it makes me a better journalist to know what you're thinking about and what questions you have. If I didn't probe into something enough. I'm happy to ask the question the next time.

James Taylor 32:47
Well, Elaine, thank you so much for coming on the Super creativity podcast, sharing some of the ideas you've written about in the book. And I really encourage people to go and get their copy as soon as they can. Thanks for coming to the show. Elaine, thank you so much, James. You could subscribe to the super creativity podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast while you're there. Please leave us a review. I would really, really appreciate it. I'm James Taylor and you're been listening to the super creativity podcast.