The Practice: Shipping Creative Work by Seth Godin

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My guest today is Seth Godin. Seth is an entrepreneur, best-selling author, and speaker. In addition to launching one of the most popular blogs in the world, he has written 19 best-selling books, including The Dip, Linchpin, Purple Cow, Tribes, This Is Marketing, and What To Do When It's Your Turn (And It's Always Your Turn). His latest book is The Practice: Shipping Creative Work. Brian Koppelman, co-producer and co-creator of the hit TV show Billions says that The Practice “is a skeleton key specially molded to unlock the most creative version of you. Read it, and find yourself free to be who you know you really are.”

Godin’s work covers a range of subjects, from the post-industrial revolution to being remarkable, and from the spread of ideas to knowing when to quit. He introduced the concept of “permission marketing” in the early days of the internet – recognizing and respecting the power of the consumers. A champion of talent, Godin proclaims that lack of creativity in the post-industrial world means we should all treat our work as a form of art.

In 2013, Seth was one of only three professionals inducted into the Direct Marketing Hall of Fame. In an astonishing turn of events, in May 2018, he was inducted into the Marketing Hall of Fame as well. He might just be the only person in both.

Seth and I talk about how he found his voice as a writer, non-attachment, Seth’s creative process, why diversity matters, and better ways to learn and ship creative work in a post-industrial world.

Artificial Intelligence Generated Transcript
Below is a machine-generated transcript and therefore the transcript may contain errors.

So welcome, Seth, thank you so much for joining us today.

Seth Godin
Well, it's a pleasure, support, work happy to contribute.

James Taylor
So I'm interested in the book that is called The Practice: Shipping Creative Work. And you did something very interesting, the very first chapter of the book, it was almost like reading a lawyer's contract or an agreement, you actually laid out the definitions right at the start, which very few books do and it's kind of helpful thoughts. So for people that haven't heard about the practice, and more importantly, what shipping creative work means. Just tell us what the inspiration was for the book, and also give us some definitions there, I think it'd be quite useful for our conversation.

The Practice: Shipping Creative Work by Seth Godin

Seth Godin
Well, everyone knows what a bridge is. Everyone knows what a bridge is, for everyone can tell when a bridge falls down. There's not a lot of argument about any of that. And part of the reason is that bridges have utility. And part of the reason is we're not afraid. But creative work is filled with fear. And so we've invented all of this nonsense around it, about what it even means for someone to be creative work, that painting might be creative work, but not what I do. We keep trying to get ourselves off the hook. And so I wanted to be really clear from the start, that I think creative work is available to anybody if you have a good job, it's because you get to make decisions, you get to do things that haven't been done before. I think it's work. Because if you want to have a hobby, please do. But this is not about your hobby. And I think you have to ship it because if it doesn't go out into the world, that doesn't count. And I wanted to make it really clear what this book was about. What this is about is putting yourself on the hook to make things better by making things you're proud of, for the people you care about. And if you're not doing that all day, then I feel bad for you. And I hope I can persuade you you should. And if you are doing that you're doing brave work, and you should do it more.

James Taylor
One of the things I thought was interesting in the book as well is you chose obviously a good story. It's got a good evil character in it a Boogeyman, I don't know what the British phrase or American phrase, but in your book, it's the kind of, I guess, the industrial complex. That's the boogeyman in the book, that's who we're kind of like fighting against to a certain extent. So that whether that's in terms of, you know, factories, or whether it's that more in between, like those get madmen, you know, the ad agency, which is still kind of factory mass produced stuff. So I'm wondering how we're going into this fourth industrial revolution, and we're in a different type of industry, artificial intelligence, machine learning robotics. Is that still valid to be fighting against the industrial and industrial type of way of thinking?

Seth Godin
So I don't know how far away you are from Manchester, but I guess you could get there and a long drive. Manchester, the birth of the Western Industrial Revolution, little known fact that during the first dozen years, up and down in the factories, they didn't have coffee carts going around, they had gin carts, and people would get drunk and stay drunk all day. And the reason is that going from a farm to spending 12 hours in a dark smoky facility where someone tells you what to do at all times, was enervating it undermined our humanity. But we did Because it was the only way to put food on the table, and the industrial bargain. It lasted 150 200 years. And it was very clear, do what you're told. And we'll give you some money for food. And the thing is that what it did was brainwash us from an early age, it invented public school. And I've been ranting against this for more than a dozen years. And it established a normal, that doesn't have to be true. And so as we enter this new post-industrial era, where you cannot put food on the table, by doing what you are told all day, that I mean, that's, you know, maybe you can if you're flipping pancakes in the back of a diner, but the number of jobs like that is going to keep going down, it's going to go down, because if we can put it in a manual, we're going to get a computer to do it, we're going to get a robot to do it. So what's left? Well, coincidentally, what's left is the stuff that makes us alive. And too many people got brainwashed into believing it wasn't for them. And I'm here to help people see that despite the unfair barriers that are in their way, despite the indoctrination, the racial injustice, the classism, it is possible, to dig deep, and do creative work, you will get rewarded for it immediately. But it's the only long-term path I can think of.

James Taylor
So where we are just now we're kind of in this, I guess, in moving with this fourth industrial revolution, the nature of what's happened over the past 12 months or so mental or more remote working. Do you have a sense of in terms of what's been happening? The people you work with the students that you work with the clients that you work with, in terms of their creativity, because we often see, initially the companies were coming out saying, Well, our productivity hasn't been affected affects productivity is better. But productivity and creativity are slightly different things. And I'm just wondering, I guess the optimistic me here is hoping that we see that kind of 1920s that, you know, that boom that we saw in Paris, you know, with a Cylons, where we're going to see that in the 2020s. Or, in the US, when you're at the end of the prohibition era, you saw a big burst again there when people were able to connect. So are you are you kind of optimistic just now in terms of creativity in the world that we're going into, maybe post hopefully, post-pandemic.

Innovation and Creativity - Seth Godin

Seth Godin
Okay, so there's a lot to that. So first of all, one of the reasons that white-collar productivity went up is because of zoom. And what zoom was used for, unfortunately, was taking attendance. But Cincy making managers feel like they had control over people. And it's been overused in too many meetings, too many people get in a circle, just shaking their heads and not contributing anything. That's not creative work. I do believe that we are in for a real revolution, as this pandemic hopefully, winds up and part of it is going to be the burst of relief we have for not being dead. But part of it is that people my generation and older are dying off. And we have been the center of everything since 1965. It has been about us. And most generations don't really pay a lot of attention to what's going to happen after they're gone. And that's part of the reason we have a climate change problem. Well, as this generation is completely exhausted, and might not come back, after the pandemic, a whole new generation, your generation is going to show up and say, Wow, we know how to use these tools. And we're not going to go work for a company with 200,000 employees because they don't know how to treat us anyway. And there's going to be, I believe, a burst of some sort of innovation and creativity. But I have no idea what it's gonna look like.

James Taylor
You mentioned innovation and creativity. There are two things there. You've been speaking on the corporate side for many years, and companies bring you into the office to speak at their conferences. You know, a lot of those kinds of doing like studies that Adobe is talking about younger people, the younger generation, Gen X, millennials, much more comfortable about using the word creativity, much more wanting to be working in environments, which are creative to be considered as creative. Whereas that word has maybe been a little bit, felt a bit woo-woo maybe for previous generations. So for the clients, you're working with because you work with amazing corporate clients as well. Are you seeing that change there from maybe that world of where they talk primarily in terms of innovation and outcomes, to thinking slightly more in the way that you tend to think and you write about

Seth Godin
so just a little bit of background? I don't have any clients I never had. I give the keynote talks.

James Taylor
If you don't class your keynote, the clients bring you in to speak or the people who bring in to speak as clients.

Seth Godin
Well, I don't call them clients because a consultant is on the hook to make change happen. And the reason I've never done consulting is it's almost impossible from the outside to make change happen. What happens for me is someone says, Can we buy an hour of your time, and then I show up and do whatever I'm going to do, and then I leave. And that freedom is amazing. And my job is to give people a headache, not to make them feel better about their job. And if they were my clients, I wouldn't do that, because I'd want them to stick with me. And I don't, I'm here to turn on lights if it's helpful or not. And I started a learning institution called the Kimbo, which is now an independent B Corp in the US five years ago, and we've had 20,000 plus students, those are people who have shown up from big companies and little ones, to learn the act of innovation and creativity. And so I've learned a lot. But I just wanted to clarify that that works. Sometimes people call me up and say, Can we hire you? And I'm like, Well, not really. Anyway, here's the problem with creativity in the eyes of some of the 25-year-olds I've met, they would like to be creative, but they don't want to be on the hook. And those are different feelings, to be creative without being on the hook means I'd like to color in any way inside or outside the lines. And I'd like you to like it. Because this is fun on the hook, which gets closer to innovation if there's a problem to be solved. And I'm going to ship work that solves that problem. If it doesn't solve that problem, I will own the fact that I can make my work better. And I will do it again. I call that creativity. For other people, it feels like it's a little too close to ownership. But I don't think they can be separated. I think if you want to be a professional if you want to do work, that's creative, you gotta put yourself on the hook.

James Taylor
When when the lines you say in the book, which I love, which is doing what you love is for amateurs love what you do is for professionals, which I think is a really beautiful line, you meant you mentioned a Kimbo there. That's, that really can stand apart from a lot of the other online learning I see out there online courses. And there are amazing things going on there just now obviously with the rays of the MOOCs as well. So why did you choose the akimbo model, which is a kind of workshop kind of cohort-based? Because I'm sure you had this menu of options that was available to you? Why did you go that route?

Skillshare

Seth Godin
Yeah, so I started by doing courses for Skillshare, I was one of their most popular teachers, then I, when they switch their business model, I went to you to me, and I was one of their most popular teachers. And what I found in both places is that there is a demand for edutainment. Watch a bunch of videos feel like you learn something. And I knew I could make a fine living doing that. And I was just not interested in it. Because I don't think learning and education are the same things. And I had no desire to be a dancing pony, for people who were then going to go back to doing what they were doing. I've been a teacher my whole life. And I decided it would be worth leading innovating, even though it was 10 times harder for us, to show people what it would actually be like to learn and what it's like to learn, to ride a bike, to juggle, to speak, to do anything that we actually care about, is not watching a video, it's doing things. That's how we learn anything. And so I built this workshop structure, because yeah, I show up with a five-minute video. And then it's followed by 500 or 5000 hours of work by the people inside the workshop, creating things, shipping them to each other, giving each other feedback, getting feedback, repeating, if you do that 60 times in the marketing seminar over the course of 100 days, I guarantee you your marketing is going to be significantly better. You can read one of my books and enjoy it. But it's not a change anything unless you want it to change something, and a workshop format, just like a gym. If you do the work, you change.

James Taylor
One of the things that go to the three-line and go throughout the book, which I guess relates to that, as I was reading, I thought this is actually quite a Buddhist book, in terms of like no attachment not being attached to the outcome in terms of thinking more in terms of process and practice, rather than like this is the final thing. So I'm wondering when you were starting, akimbo, did you have a were you thinking in terms of outcome? Or were you just thinking we're going to create these, we're going to see what the reaction to the market and get more in that kind of practice was was that very much the concept in terms of how you build, I'm guessing online school, but you know, build this online business.

Seth Godin
So let's talk a little bit about I mean, I'm a sloppy Buddhist. And I will not hold myself out as somebody who is a scholar in any of this. But there's a really big difference between caring about the outcome in the way you do your work and attachment to the outcome. And let me give you an analogy that might help. If you and a friend are going to swim across a lake, there are two ways you might do that. One way you might do that is, as you're swimming together, be aware of where that person is, if they're getting ahead, swim faster if they're falling behind swim slower awareness will help you do a better job of swimming together across the lake. The other alternative is to get four ropes and tie your right hand to their right hand, your left hand to their left hand, etc. And using those ropes remain attached to them, as you try to swim across, you will both drown for sure, yeah. Because if you are attached, you will not pay attention to your swimming. If you are attached, you will not be present with the work you need to do. And so every project I have succeeded in for 30 years before I figured this out, has been a success because I figured out what assertions I needed to make, how to perform the craft that I wanted to pay attention to. And then I simply did the work. As opposed to always looking over my shoulder keeping track of how many likes looking at all of the things willing the outside world to do what I wanted to do. Because if you're spending your time trying to control outcomes by remote using telekinesis, you're not able to actually do your work. And so with the author MBA, which was the cornerstone of akimbo The idea was, I'm going to make six assertions about how I think learning works. I'm going to be aware of all of those six things as I construct this, and then I will put it in front of people and I will watch what happens. But if someone doesn't get the joke, I won't tie myself up in knots trying to make them happy. I will just say, we don't have the same assertions. Thank you for trying this, Here's your money back. And if no one gets the joke, then I have failed. But if I can find the people who do get it, then I've created something singular and important. That's what I try to do with all of my work.

James Taylor
I'm James Taylor, business, creativity, and innovation keynote speaker, and this is the super creativity podcast. If you enjoy listening to conversations with creative thinkers, innovators, entrepreneurs, artists, authors, educators, and performers, then you've come to the right place. Each week we discuss their ideas, their life, their work, successes, failures, creative process, and much much more.

You'll find show notes for today's episode as well as free creativity training at Jamestaylor. me. If you enjoy learning about Seth Gordon's creative process, then check out my interview with the legendary editor Peter Ghazali. Where we discuss his work is the creative collaborative choice for writers including Douglas Adams for Stephen Hawking and Deepak Chopra. You my conversation with Peter Rosati at Jamestaylor.me. After the break, we returned to my interview with Seth Godin, and discuss the role that diversity and the environment play and doing great creative work.

This week's episode is sponsored by speakers you the online community for international speakers, speakers, you help you grow, launch and monetize your speaking business faster than you thought possible. If you want to share your message as a highly paid speaker then speakers will teach you how just go to SpeakersU.com to access their free speaker business training.

Now what do you have, it's not just you, with a Kimbo you have this wonderful tribe, I guess, of teachers of other people that are kind of contributing and helping your community. One of those is Scott Perry is our mutual friend Scott Perry. And last time I saw Scott, we were doing a retreat to creativity retreat up in New York State up in the Woodstock area. And that one of the other teachers there, Martin Taylor, the guitarist, was teaching this idea of how to get over improvisation, a lot of people get very flustered about this idea about improvisation, being this big kind of like in your head thing. And he said sometimes you just need you mentioned bridges, you need a bridge to get to the place. And so for him, he said, think what the line should be, what you want to play, sing it, and then play it. So think sing play. And it was easy for them to have that middle bridge that middle place and then said finally the singing just drops away. It just leaves and you can just go straight from your idea to the finger. As I read your book. I can hear your voice so strongly the way you're speaking just now I can hear it in the world. And so something I've just kind of pondering before coming on this interview today is that when you're out there, you know walking about or having a shower in the morning or you're walking down the Hudson, an idea comes to you are you immediately thinking in terms of those what you're very well known for. There are 250 300 words daily blog posts, are you thinking in terms of a statement and assertion. Are you thinking visually, where does that where do you go with that thing comes into your head?

Seth Godin
Yeah. This is a rate, insight. So I decided a long time ago, so I only took one English class when I was in college when I was in high school, my English teacher wrote in my yearbook, you will never amount to anything new is the bane of my existence. I do not have the discipline to read literature, I decided once I was going to be a writer to write as I talk. And that saves me an enormous amount of trouble of putting all these intermediate barriers. First, I needed to learn to talk better. And what has happened with the blog is, as I have found, quote, my voice in the blog, it has actually changed the way that I speak in the real world. And it has changed the way that I think. So you're correct. I think you're the first person who's ever brought this up. I now look at the world through blog posts, that when I see something I don't understand my thought about it feels like a blog post when I read an important book, like weapons of mass destruction, which I'm just finishing now, it is filling my brain with blog posts. And if I didn't find that useful, I would stop writing my blog. But I think my blog has been a gift to me because it has helped me process the world around me better.

James Taylor
So I think that probably for maybe a lot of people, new writers out there that are listening to this just now watching this just now that that may be quite consoling to hear that as well. Because I think a lot of people also think like that. I know some people that think in tweets, they just instinctively their brain just works and tweets other people think in terms of visuals, very strong kind of visual and emphasized. So that's something I've read before which I'm not sure if it's true or not. Maybe you can have to correct me It could be one of those Wikipedia things. But you're someone who enjoys making vodka but doesn't drink, who enjoys creating artisanal kind of coffee, making really great coffees, but doesn't drink coffee. And in the book, you talk about going fly fishing, but not wanting to catch fish. What's the pattern here? what's the trend here?

Seth Godin
So all those three things are true. I wish I could drink coffee. I don't want to drink vodka. I wish I could drink coffee, but my stomach doesn't agree. It's about attachment. Right? So the thing about fly fishing, which I talked about in the book, is the people who are going fly fishing or throwing the fish back anyway. So it's not like they're hungry. They're engaging in a battle with an animal whose brain is smaller than a walnut. And what I found, what about myself and what I've seen in other people as they get attached to whether they caught fish or not, was it a good day of fishing while I caught some fish? Why does that make it a good day of fishing that you beat a walnut-brained item and then tortured it and threw it back, I just wanted to be in the world. I wanted to feel what it was like to cast Well, I wanted to do the craft without regard for whether I tricked a fish or not. And so I had a better day that day of fly fishing than most of my colleagues who were busy keeping score of something that didn't make sense. The same way I don't keep score, how many people read my blog, and I don't keep score, how many copies my books sell. Because none of those things would make my writing better. They would simply put me on a path to try to either control other people or be more popular, neither one of which is my goal. And in the case of coffee and vodka, there's a craft to making those things. And how do I know if I'm doing it? Well, other people are saying, You made this for me and it is working. And so the same thing is true inside the marketing seminar. I already know how to do marketing. So I am building it for other people who meet a certain set of criteria and then watching them. Transform is where I get my pleasure. My satisfaction

James Taylor
is also part of the pleasure though, working with your hands. Because you're so much of what you do every day you're working with your brain and your thinking. And you're contemplating these ideas, reflecting and reading. All those things also have a physicality I guess to them as well. They just read a great book and got him on the show Professor Roger Kneebone, who wrote a book called expert, and one and he's a great surgeon. And he talks about one of the challenges now of students coming into the surgery schools is they've got all that in kind of intellectual knowledge, you know where the bits are, but they have, they're not so good with their hands less good than previous generations. So, in the end, they've had to start a course called thread management with the bringing embroidery people to come and teach embroidery to surgeons and that skill just to use. So it's part of your pleasure as well as giving others pleasure and being for others and serving others. Also just you get to do something. Oh, yeah,

Seth Godin
I mean, I, again, I don't know how widely spread this is, maybe it's the way you've raised. So I cook dinner every night for my family and have for 20, 30 years. Because the idea that there's a project that I'm going to use with my hands, that's going to start and finish within 40 minutes, is very satisfying for someone who sometimes does projects that last for years. And to know that I did this thing, non professionally for people I care about gives me a great deal of satisfaction. And but I also feel the same way when I'm kerning fonts in Illustrator. Right, that's digital, but it's still involving, using your eyes and a feedback loop to say that it looks better than it used to look. Yeah.

James Taylor
One of the things in the book was nice stories, which I'd never heard before. And it was actually something in the book, I thought, sometimes I like reading books, I thought, I wonder where the book, The next book could go from this, what that could spur whether it's the writer writes it or someone else inspires and celebrates. And you started at various points by talking about the value of diversity in creative work as a collaborative thing. So it's not about the eyes, but by the way. And as you were starting to kind of go there, about collaborative, you told a story, which story I'd never heard before. But Pythagoras, and Crosby, Stills, and Nash and one other. Could you tell that story because I think it's quite nice? We were talking earlier about improvisation, dissonance. We didn't all have to be perfect, I guess.

Seth Godin
So Protagoras, the guy who invented the triangle. He was a little bit of a Loon. And one of the things that he did when he would go for long walks in the village, was walking past the blacksmith shop. And blacksmiths, in those days use big heavy hammers to hit pieces of metal to bend them. And like many human beings, over time, they would come into sync and all end up hitting your hammers at the same time. And as he walked by the blacksmith shop, he heard a chord coming from the shop. And of course, since he was Protagoras, he marched into the shop and took everyone's hammers from them. And he was the first person to publish work on the dynamics of harmony because he weighed each one of the hammers. And he was able to prove that the first four hammers differed in weight, just enough that when they hit metal at the same time, the clanging sound created a chord that we enjoyed hearing. But the punchline of the story was he had actually taken five hammers, and the fifth hammer was wrong. The fifth hammer wasn't where it was supposed to be in harmony. And it turns out, that made it sound even better. Because the human ear gets tired of a perfect chord and is way more interested in something that's just a little bit not mathematically, right. And then I took that idea, and I advanced it a couple of 1000 years to one of the original Supergroups, Crosby, Stills, Nash and young, and Crosby, Stills, and Nash had perfect harmony. And Neil Young did not just when they were singing, but for example, on tour, Neil took his bus and drove from city to city, and the three of them flew together. his fifth hammer, his voice not being quite right, was what made the group actually magical. And then I talk a little bit about Scott page's work on a diversity of experience, racial background, income, and everything else. No one wants to go listen to a tuba orchestra. Because when it's nothing but buzz, it doesn't sound that good. So if you're going to put together a creative team, it doesn't make sense to hire people who only look act, and talk like you. That diversity actually played, we can prove mathematically pays very significant dividends when groups of people come together to do work.

James Taylor
I love that I think that's one of the nice things from friends of mine who have gone through our MBA akimbo, that diversity of your cohort as well you're getting those different inspirations. As we start to finish up here. One of the other things you mentioned in the book is Miss on place, your physical environment, and the impact that has upon your creativity. So I'm, I'm always in what is within touching distance of you just now when you're writing when you're working, what would you like to keep within that distance?

Seth Godin
So we have this because Is it a GIF or GIF? You have juggling balls. We have multiple pairs of eyeglasses, we have behind me a patina-filled bookcase that reminds me of where my head was when I had a good idea before in front of me. We Have this because I met Neil Armstrong and he inspired the story inside the book. It's a mess, except I know where everything is. And that patina, that hard-earned idea that this is the place where I do the work is critical because I used to write books on airplanes. And so for me, the airplane was a trigger. If I get in there, I got nothing to do. There's no internet, I'm going to type. And then once the internet showed up, I couldn't read on airplanes anymore. So I have rituals, like many people who create, and mostly it's come up with a place or an environment where no criticism is welcome. We're no gloom and doom is appropriate. Where there is no breaking news, wolf Blitzer televisions, none of that is there, this is the room you go to only when you're going to dance with possibility. And if you want to tear things down, do it somewhere else. And that idea that you've intentionally created an environment, put your brain into a different zone.

James Taylor
So I'm guessing, I'm wondering where you'll be going to be going next with your writing. But at the end of the book, you just talk about this idea about a post-Industrial Revolution. Can you foresee a time maybe in your lifetime? Where machines computers robots AI, however you like to call it would have the type of creative capabilities not just to equal as humans, but actually to extend that? Or do you see it much more as these technologies are augmenting tools more than anything else?

Seth Godin
Well, so you know, I majored in computer science as an undergrad and studied with Douglas, not at Stanford, who's one of the pioneers of artificial intelligence. Here's a useful definition of artificial intelligence. It's everything a computer can't do yet. As soon as a computer can do its job, that's easy, right? When they said, if a computer can beat us it, go, or Jeopardy or chess, then it will be artificially intelligent. Well, now it can at all three, and all of a sudden, no, those don't count. So by almost every measure, computers are already doing work that we used to think of as creative work. All that's missing is conscious intent. But as we've built the marketplace to be worldwide, you have no idea what the conscious intent of the Creator is, because you're never going to meet the Creator, who for all, you know, was invented by an artificial intelligent thing. GPT three can't write as well as your AI, but it's getting close enough to fool some people. Yeah. And artificial intelligence can already read an X-ray better than a radiologist. So I think that the steam shovel invented far more opportunities than it destroyed, the steam shovel put a lot of ditch diggers out of work. But it opened up a whole bunch of other opportunities. We take for granted that part of what it means to be in a civilized society is that you get a whole bunch of things for free or close to free, right that in a little village in India, will clean water doesn't come out of the tap it does here. as we add more productivity, my hope is that it doesn't all go to the richest 1% of the world. But that we figure out Oh, food, we got enough food. Everyone should have something to eat, oh, buildings. We now know how to build buildings. Everyone should have a place to live. What's wrong with that? And so I don't think we're heading for a utopia. Human beings hate utopias. We tear them down every chance we get. But I do think we are headed toward a world where coming out ahead of AI is going to require people to lean really hard into what it means to be a human and to keep changing the game. Because if the game stays the same, the computers moving in.

 

James Taylor
Well, Seth Godin, thank you so much for coming on today. Your new book is called practice shipping creative work. If you want to learn also more about akimbo and the workshops you do where's the best place for you to go and do that?

Seth Godin
So Akimbo is not run by me but they do publish my workshops is it akimbo calm akimbo.com my podcast is it akimbo.link And my blog say it stops.

James Taylor
Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I wish you all the best with your creative work.

Seth Godin
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Go make a ruckus.

James Taylor
You can subscribe to the super creativity podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, leave us a review. I really appreciate it. I'm James Taylor, and you've been listening to the super creativity podcast.