Self-publishing vs Independent-publishing
James Taylor interviews Joanna Penn and they talk about Self-publishing vs Independent-publishing
In this episode, we cover:
- How to be a healthy writer
- Self-publishing vs Independent-publishing
- Measuring your life by what you create
Resources:
For More of Creative Life Podcast By James Taylor
Artificial Intelligence Generated Transcript
Below is a machine-generated transcript and therefore the transcript may contain errors.
James Taylor
Hi, I'm James Taylor business creativity and innovation keynote speaker. And this is the Creative Life, a show dedicated to you the creative. If you're looking for motivation, inspiration and advice, while at home at work or on your daily commute, then this show is for you. Each episode brings you a successful creative, whether that's an author, musician, entrepreneur, perform a designer, or a thought leader. They'll share with you their journey, their successes, their failures, their creative process, and much much more. You'll find Show Notes for this episode as well as free training on creativity over at Jamestaylor.me. Enjoy this episode.
Hi, it's James Taylor here. Today's episode was first aired as part of International Authors Summit. This inspiring virtual summit reveals the secrets of making marketing and monetizing a best selling book. If you would like to access the full video version as well as in depth sessions with over 40 Best Selling authors that I've got a very special offer for you just go to InternationalAuthorsSummit.com, where you'll be able to register for a free pass for the summit. Yeah, that's right. Over 40 New York Times and Amazon best selling authors, book editors, agents and publishers, sharing their insights, strategies and tactics on how to write and market your first or next best sellers. So just go to InternationalAuthorsSummit.com, but not before you listen to today's episode.
Hey there, it's James Taylor, and I'm delighted today to be joined by Joanna Penn. Joanna Penn is a speaker, entrepreneur and Award nominated in New York Times and USA Today best selling author. Since becoming a writer she has authored 27 books and sold over 500,000 copies in 84 countries and five languages. She writes thrillers under the name of jF pen and uses a full giant a pen name to write nonfiction for authors. When not sitting at a desk crafting her next work you'll find her on stage speaking about self publishing And bookmarking, a site thecreativepenn.com is regularly voted one of the top 10 sites for both aspiring and professional writers. It's my great pleasure to have Joanna with us today. So welcome Joanna.
Joanna Penn
Oh, thanks for having me days. It's good to talk to you.
James Taylor
So what's happening in your world just now what are you currently working on?
Joanna Penn
Oh, it's a great days talk to me because just this morning, I actually delivered my next thriller, which is called valley of dry bones to my editor. So for me today, it's a it's one of these moments like as in I've just finished the first edit so the book is like if I published it right now it would be fine but it's about 95% I think so. Yeah. One of these good days when I probably have a gin and tonic after this actually, sort of a celebration
James Taylor
with different authors I know that they can have little gifts to themselves little things that just to mark those different occasions in your first draft and other things. So is a gin and tonic is that is that your your reward of choice then when you kind of get to this stage in the process?
Joanna Penn
Well, to be honest, it's it's my reward of choice. All my drowning my sorrows of choice. But I think I think the big the big deal is with when I finish this draft when I send it to my editor, that's when I set up my pre order. So this is a kind of a bit of a tip for when you know the timelines when you're an independent author, you need to know the timelines of when you can publish stuff. And once I've got this draft, I know pretty much the dates I can send to my proofreaders my beta readers and put you know I can put up my I know when I can get this book out now so I that's why this is such an important milestone, I think.
James Taylor
Now, this is a fiction book, this one you've just worked on, but you've also you write nonfiction as well. Do the timelines differ from this stage? And when you have that, that version of the book, is it different depending on whether you're writing fiction or nonfiction?
Joanna Penn
It depends very much and I know we might come on to series in general, but this is book 10. In an established series, my arcane thrillers, which are kind of Laura Croft meets Dan Brown. And so I know the characters I know worlds I know the structure, I just need the plot. This is actually taken about 18 months of thinking but it only took six weeks of writing my last nonfiction book, which was how to write nonfiction, which was quite meta was actually a longer book, it took about three, three months, three to four months. And it was it's, you know, it's a standalone, although I've got books for authors, and I think that one was much was kind of much more difficult because it had so much to go into it. So what I would say to people is, I don't think that is necessarily a guaranteed timeline for any book. I do think you have to set deadlines for yourself so this is a really important productivity tip. I mean, I know you know this but when you're if you know that I can't remember the Laura is but the project will expand to the time that you when you give it that one yeah, there we go. Yeah, if you say, oh, I've got forever to write my book. It doesn't matter then it will take you forever and there are authors you You know, he's been years and years writing. Whereas I tend to set a timeline, a deadline for it, aim for that. And even if you miss it, you still tend to get close enough to that. So I find that really important. And again, especially as an independent running my own business, I have to set my own timelines. And of course, readers always want the book like the next day. So you have to kind of balance productivity with mental health, which can be a difficult thing, but
James Taylor
that's important point. You know, that mental health that you know that being a healthy author, because you're speaking all the time, but lots of different types of authors are the ones that you find are both productive and sane. At the same time, and they have a kind of healthy attitude to the to their work, and they're just nice people to the good people to be around. Have you ever said anything in common with them? Or is there anything in terms of the person you think personalities or you may be giving yourself little rewards? What's what what am signifying someone you Thing is, that is both a good one is a really good author, but they're also they have quite a healthy attitude to writing.
Joanna Penn
Well actually last year, I co wrote a book with a medical doctor called the healthy writer. So this is something that's very dear to my heart. And what we actually found and you know, it's one of those things with health, you think it's rocket science, and then it's not, is getting a lot of sleep. So it's really funny. I'm very productive. I've written 28 books, so I write a lot. I do a lot and I sleep for eight to nine hours per night. I'm like asleep asleep machine. Because my conscious brain really needs sleep. I read a lot so I normally go to bed quite early, and I'll read for an hour to be done. And then physical movement is critical for writers. So I'm standing up right now I think you are as well right you at a standing desk. Actually, I'm sitting my sitting desk but
James Taylor
I just I invested in a very, very nice chair recently. It's a I can't remember the makeup but it's like it's a very, very nice chair is the one that I was told to get for ergonomics and all that stuff, but beyond You You're standing in, could you prefer doing all of the standing thing? Yes,
Joanna Penn
I am a standing desk for things like podcasting. And then I have various accoutrements for working in cafes. I mean, I get it all out for the cafe as well, so that everything's at the right height. But definitely, I think people people think that writing is simple. You know, you just sit down and write stuff. But it's very tiring. And I think that this is because you know, they say we have a certain amount of willpower a day or a certain you have a certain amount of capacity per day. And when you are making decisions, whether it's making decisions for your characters, whether it's what chapter to write how to kind of download your brain for nonfiction, you're making so many choices with what you're writing even down to word choice. That's actually very tiring. So what I would say to people is, don't underestimate the stamina, you need to write a book. It's very different to writing a blog post very different to, you know, writing in a thing much shorter or something you're used to, you know, you really do need to set aside the Time, but also the time for your unconscious subconscious. So that exercise and sleeping and, you know looking after your physical and mental health, taking a break, like don't fall into internet negativity, which can really set you back. Don't compare yourself with other people that can be really tough to but you know setting those regular guidelines, those routines, there's a lot of books now on habit formation, routine formation, and I've I found that I really really need my routine in order to write. I have a table at a cafe I have the stuff that I set up my desk with, I drink the same coffee. I go to the yoga class at the same time. I you know, I write I do my dictation at a certain room in a co working space. And that's how I get my books done. And that's not the glamorous stuff, right. No one wants to hear that. But I intersperse that non glamorous stuff with my research trips, which is why I travel a lot as well.
James Taylor
So yeah, dude Those like, I sometimes think in terms of Twitter and posting things and, and I thought I would probably have the most boring Twitter they've I've actually posted the tweets of actually stuff I do for most of my day as opposed to the fun stuff where you're traveling and you're speaking and stuff like that. It basically consists of making cups of tea sitting, walking, going around the room trying not to go to the fridge to have a cookie or whatever. So it's all those things that you How is your process as you become more experienced, right? Obviously, you can be successful writer as well, that that those habits those routines have those change because you didn't go from like Day Zero of saying I'm quitting my job and I'm going to be a full time author. There was a there was a bit of a ramp up to how you did that. So I'm interested, how did you you kind of ramp that up slowly when you know writing wasn't a thing you the only thing you were doing every day?
Joanna Penn
Well, I think the main thing and we know this as entrepreneurs as well. There's a lot of skills you have to learn around everything. So at the same time as I mean Even learning to write fiction versus nonfiction is quite different skills in themselves. But then at the same time, you're probably learning how to blog or how to podcast or how to do speaking or how's it how to go into networking things or entering competitions. And so I first started writing nonfiction in 2006. So 12 years ago was we're talking now. So that's when I decided to write my first book, self help book, which became career change. And it took me five years of writing to go full time. And in that time, I'd written a couple of books and started the blog and the podcast. But what the main difference, I think, to who I am now is that back then I really didn't ever expect to make a full time living with my writing. I was primarily a speaker, looking to make money from blogging primarily and now and so a lot of my time was much more around that more Regular online stuff. Whereas with books, you kind of have to take a step back and think about intellectual property creation, which might not earn you money right now, but will earn you money over the long term. So I know that my mindset has completely shifted to the idea of creating assets, which will bring me income for the long term. And this is a very powerful concept. And it is why everybody listening that publishing companies want your book because they want assets on their balance sheet. And that will make them income on their profit and loss statement. So this is the thing when you run your own business and you start thinking about creating assets that earn you money for the long term, every hour I put into creating assets will make me money for my lifetime and 70 years after I die as long as I manage my intellectual property assets well, and so that's a big shift. The other thing that shifted is of course, when I started writing my first novel, I Had a day job, I didn't have to pay the bills with my writing. So that first novel took me what 14 months to write. It was it was a hobby. As in, I didn't expect necessarily to make money from it. I wanted to, but I didn't expect to I didn't have an audience. And that is both a pro and a con. But now we've booked 10 in that same series is this is that you know, but one strain of fire. This is book 10 of that series, and I haven't I have an audience who want that book. And then I know the day after that book comes out, they will say, where's the next book? So it's, it's like, great, people are going to buy it. And then oh, my goodness, they're going to want another one so far. So there's lots of pros and cons with how things have changed and what I would say to people listening, what you need to do is make sure that you don't wish your time away and wish that you were at another point in the journey. I know how difficult that is because I think I do too. I mean, I often I'm always looking forward to the next goal, but make the most of not having an audience to really test ideas play around with stuff because very soon you will have one and you'll have to deliver to what they want as well as what your creative self want.
James Taylor
And I'm also I'm a little bit cautious now. And this is more more from the author speaking where I gave, I gave a speech recently and, and someone about two weeks later publisher actually sent me the front cover of the book of my speech. So like with my name, they've basically mocked up the front cover this, this publisher had been in the audience, and he's seen my speech and a basic basic pitch me to say I want to publish the book of this now I'll bring in a ghostwriter or bringing a co write it with you and actually made me it was very nice to have that but also made me think I have to be a little bit more conscious of not kind of giving things away as I'm going to going through the process of obviously, you can have costly testing, but there's certain things about I'm a little bit more cautious now about seeing and putting out into the into the world so I wondered like as you're writing to you wrote, obviously fiction but you also you We were well versed in nonfiction as well, and you publish a lot of nonfiction books. How do you balance that? You know, you must have all these ideas kind of going around all the time like, Oh, this is going to be a great idea. How do you balance that like testing it into the market with not giving away too much. So when the book comes out, it's it's going to be there for folks?
Joanna Penn
Well, with nonfiction, I would say, give everything away. app just give it all away. What is amazing. I like some people turn their blog into a book or their talks into a book, I often will write a book and then I turn my book into articles. So a lot of the chapters, my nonfiction books and our articles, their videos on YouTube, that talks. But what's so interesting and again, you know, I think everyone realizes this. People want things packaged in an easy way. So for example, I am a podcaster. But I also have audiobooks of all my nonfiction like most of my nonfiction and my fiction. So people who listen to audio you know, we're so busy. So then someone might find a blog post of mine from, you know, my book how to write nonfiction, but they're not going to sit there and read the like all the blog posts on the blog, because that's just not a handy way of doing it. Instead, they might click the link to buy the book, and also the audio book, or the print book or the workbook, because they're like, Oh, that's a really useful chapter. So what I would say when nonfiction is very, very different with fiction, but with nonfiction, I don't think it you know, give it away, and then turn that same material into multiple products and multiple streams of income. I really believe that very different with yourself. Like if you were looking to work with a publisher, remember that if you sign any contract, and it goes to everyone listening, if you sign a contract, you really need to be clear what that contract includes. For example, your publisher might not let you publish that as a blog post. They might not let you do an audio book. They might keep those rights. They might not let you publish in America or You know, Australia. So the important thing is, to me, it's about control, and the ability to be global, digital mobile to take advantage of anything I can, which means I keep control. But for example, I just signed a deal yesterday for Korean rights for one of my nonfiction books, so that books going to go out and print in Korean. I was never going to self publish in Korean. So you know, these are things that can come up either way. So I'm not saying don't sign a contract, I'm saying be very aware of what a contract contains, and make sure that it still allows you to do the things you want to do with your own material and intellectual property.
James Taylor
So I say that, you know, this kind of brings this idea of obviously, traditionally published, we hear like, often traditional published and self published or independently published and then you kind of have this kind of hybrid type of thing that can goes on as well. First of all, explain, explain to me into the difference between we hear the self publishing and in Independent publishing. What is it? What's the difference between those things? And who is if it's almost too good, then that channel, the channel, the route that you have gone? Who do you think that is right for? And who do you think would actually be better going for maybe the more traditional way of publishing?
Joanna Penn
Yes. So, first of all, I would say the really important question is, What is your definition of success? Really important? And most people don't know what their definition of success is. They think they do. But then if you actually ask them, they're like, Oh, I just want to sell some books. It's like, yeah, that's not that's not good enough. So that's just the difference between to me. I don't like saying self publishing, I don't Self Publish. I work with professional designers, editors, a number of different editors, proofreaders, beta readers, you know, book designers, printers, you know, so I work with a lot of freelance professionals, many of whom work with traditional publishing. So and I write I have my own small press, called curl up press. I work with With the publishers like Ingram Spark, who do printing for the biggest publishing houses in the world, so these this is why I call myself an independent author. And, and some people would say independent publisher, but independent publishers often publish other people's work. I'm an independent author, I only publish my own work or those I am co write with. So and I have no desire to publish other people just before anyone pictures. But then, so the difference with that, and then with traditional publishing, obviously, what you're doing is instead of doing it yourself, you're gonna work with a publishing company, with an editor with a designer and they have the control and you're going to sign a contract with them. And the amount of control that you get and input into the process will totally depend on your contract. But just on a purely financial level, most publishing contracts are around 10 to 25% royalties, some digital first might go up to 50. percent, but most of them are the lower end. And as an independent author, I get 70% seven zero percent when I published it with Amazon and with my print books, I will do maybe $2 a book, profit. So and if people were traditionally published, they'll know they normally get a lot less than that. So there's a there's a different financial side, the control side is very different. Many traditionally published authors might not get control, it's nice that you've got that cover, for example, many authors would not see a cover until much later. And what I would say in terms of who it suits, if you are someone who runs your own business, you might struggle with working with a publisher who wants too much control because you're used to everything being in your control, unless you really just want to hand off the whole process to someone else and you're not doing it for the money. So this is a really big deal about this coming back to definition of success. If you want to win a literary prize Then get a traditional publisher. If you want to be a speaker and make money at the back of the room, then you have two options, one, get a traditional publishing deal, make no money, but get bigger speaking gigs, or self publish and make big bucks at the back of the room. So this is the thing, you've got so many choices now. And this is what I love about the new model, you have the choice, and you can mix and match. So you might decide to do one, but with traditional publishing, where you get less money, but kudos, and then you might self publish a book at the same time, and then use that for marketing. So you make the money on that one, and the other ones for kudos. So it totally depends on what you want to achieve
James Taylor
presented for you. You know that that sense of being independent having that that sense of control. Obviously, there's a there's a big financial difference between those two different ways of doing doing things, but it's really the the sense of independence and sense of control that being being an independently published independent author that that's a big thing for you.
Joanna Penn
Yeah, and the other thing I would say is speed. You know, if you sign a pub, if you get an agent right now, it might take a year to get a deal. Once you get a deal, it might be another year before the book comes out. So book deals take a long, long, long time. And I don't have that patience. I like it when I feel like I've handed that book to the editor today, as we talk in the beginning of September. I know that book will be published within a month. And I know that because I control the rest of the process was again, if I was traditionally published, it would probably be a year to 18 months by which time I will have written like three or four more books. So yeah, so this is the thing for me. The speed is a big aspect, the control. Also the world is changing every day. Like there are more exciting opportunities every day. I've just recently last week, got my books into China through published drive. I've now got audio books on Google Play. You know, we have new opportunities at Walmart with Kobo, my books were in the opening of the Walmart ebook store in the US. These are things that come up All the time that the you know, you just don't even know what's going to happen. So if you don't have control, you can't take advantage of this. I also have control of pricing so I can do promotions. So yeah, I think at this point, I mean, I would, I would absolutely take a deal where if it fitted what I wanted, but I also went into this in order to make good money. I am a businesswoman, as well as a creative and my goal was always to make six figures and multi six figure income. And I know the way to do this as an independent and the reach is clear. I know you've interviewed like Joseph Alexander and some other independent authors who there is a clear route to making six plus seven figures money in this game now, whereas traditional publishing feels a lot more like a lottery ticket approach. Yes, you might, you know, you might luck out, but it's not a business plan.
James Taylor
And we interviewed a few Joseph Alexander as well and it was it was very complimentary to you because I said I mean, if anyone looking for advice on how to kind of do what he did, which is kind of going into from six to seven speaker author, he said, just read Joanna Penn's books. That was it. That was his cue. I said, it's really I just followed those, you know, the books that Joanna I just looked at in terms of writing and publishing, and I know you do things, you know, in other areas, well, in terms of how to build their writing business, I think he said now having been Joseph, he did like 14 books in the first year as a nonfiction writer. So he really ramped up and now he's obviously working with a lot of CO writers, as well and creating almost a bigger publishing business as well. But as he said, as you're saying, there is a route, if you want to go down this independent way of doing things, and you get that independence, you get that sense of control. There's that sense of speed. And I know that a lot of people probably watching listen to this are professional speakers or aspiring to professional speakers. One thing that I'd never thought of someone that I interviewed recently Phil M. Jones is a British speaker lives in New York now. He said, one of the things he wants to do in independently publishing was when he's working with a client now he can have 500 copies made with that clients, you know, logo inside with maybe a foreword by the CEO of the company, that he can give out x numbers of books, because he knows that those books will bring him in speaking engagements, which will far You know, give a massive ROI on what he's doing. And he said, If he'd been with a traditional author, he just wouldn't have had that flexibility. He just couldn't have done that as well. So I know that is a complicated issue. But I think you know that if you are going the that the independent publishing route, then your books, and people can read your books, and they can go through that. And it's a great way of thinking about it.
Joanna Penn
Yeah, why don't we just add on that is Ingram Spark, who are one of the publishers that many of us use, including big publishing have just introduced, it's only $1 to personalize a print run. So you can do that one page or whatever at the front of books for which Have a client you're in and it's only gonna cost you an extra dollar plus you get bulk discounts if you order lots of books see once you know these things the seriously the publishing bit is this much of the process the writing is this much the marketing is that much you know i mean you know marketing any kind of business is that much the publishing isn't many than publishing takes me like a couple of hours. Now, you're
James Taylor
really skilled obviously, on the marketing the marketing side in a lot of people can come to you to get ideas and you're the creative pen has some great ideas in terms of renmark marketing. But for a lot of authors or aspiring authors, there's still that stage where, where someone like Steven pressfield say they have that resistance, just that process of getting and sitting down every day and in writing those 500 words or the thousand words in your journey as an author, what have you learned to help with that? The the mindset, just the, the ritual of being able to write everyday to get that to get those words happening.
Joanna Penn
Well, I think like better tough love people, like how much do you want this? Like, seriously, that's what it comes back to. And I think it comes back to it, whether you're a speaker, whether you're building your small business, if you want to write fiction, whatever you want, how much do you want it? And when I, I had the, you know, the sort of early 30s, what should I do with my life, and I wrote down what I wanted my life to look like. And it was I want to read, I love to read, I want to travel, and I want to write. And the other thing is that I was so miserable with my job because I just felt like I was on, you know, the rat race and had nothing to show for it. And what I love about writing a book is that you can hold it in your hand and say, I made this and at the end of the year, you can stack up your books and go, I made these, like, I've got some over here, I made those. They came from my brain, and it's like, wow, I have achieved something and it just feel it. So tangible. So now I measure my life by what I create. And that to me, keeps me going. I mean, like I said, I just finished that book what I did, between finishing it at lunchtime, I cleared my desk, I've stuck my map on the wall because I'm starting my next book, because I'm addicted to this process. I need to get on with the next book now, because I love doing it. So what I would say to people is like, if you're not driven by wanting to achieve, being a writer, and it's got to be what the daily routine is, it's the reading. It's the writing. It's the what I have created. It's not some mythical. You know. I don't think there's much glamour really being a writer. There really isn't. I mean, even with being a speaker, like people think, oh, you just travel around the world stuff. But yeah, you're in hotel rooms a lot. You have to go to networking, drink, bad wine, that type of thing. So I mean, I think you have to love the job. Otherwise, it's just another job. I might as We'll just have stayed being an IT consultant. But the point is, like, how much do you want this? And what do you want your life to look like? And how do you measure your success? And for me as an introvert who just likes being alone a lot and making stuff up, this is the best job in the world.
James Taylor
I just seen I'm reminded I think was Austin kleon. He said, a lot of people want to be the noun without doing the verb.
Joanna Penn
Yes. And you have to want the verb you have to want lighting. Yeah,
James Taylor
yeah. And actually, I think Elizabeth Gilbert did a very funny video she did interview with Marie Forleo about exactly this same thing I'm not gonna say but it because it involves some rude language. Really the way you describe it. If you look at that refold Elizabeth Gilbert video if anyone's watching this just now and it talks exactly to this, the things that maybe the unpalatable things that you sometimes have to do because you love what you do so much, and it's a bigger a bigger calling. And I'd love to know, in the time we have left, what tools do you use in terms of your your writing You're obviously marketing and publishing, getting things out into the world. Okay, so
Joanna Penn
Scrivener is the number one tool I would really struggle to write a book without Scrivener. I'm sure you'll put a link in the show notes but it's really cheap. It's like 50 US dollars. It is a you can plan with it, you can write with it. You can even publish with it. It does export files, but I use vellum, which is a Mac only but vellum to, to publish and I've got a tutorial on my website, so maybe you might link to that tutorial. But basically vellum allows me to create Kindle files, EPUB files for the other platforms, even print files. So really, with those two tools, you've really you've gone a long way and then the rest of them are very much online. So they are like Amazon, KDP and Kobo writing life and their services. I mean, these just to be clear to people, these are free, it is free to publish. So what costs you money is obviously at work. With an editor, working with a cover designer, even cover there, you can go with a site like Canva, canva.com, which I also use for blog posts and for social media things, but they do book covers as well for free. There are lots and lots of tools you can use like that. But yeah, the the two I would say that are critical to my business would be Scrivener and vellum at this point.
James Taylor
I was scripting I'm interested in when you come to starting to write your outline in your book, because I use Scrivener as well. One things I've always tried to figure out is like when I'm I can I like to can think about who I'm writing, who I'm going to be writing for who the audience is, and put some just an outline and really construct almost like an internal proposal proposal, except I'm the only one that's going to be reading it at this stage. Is that something that you would do and you'd put into something like a Scrivener so you've got some way of kind of looking back if you if you get off of off target a little bit you can pull yourself back in like why Who is this for? Why am I writing? What's the goal for this book?
Joanna Penn
I'm probably not quite saying I mean, I would agree with With that, but for me, it's more like I will create a Scrivener document when I'm thinking about a book. For nonfiction, I will just chuck in a whole load of one liners. So I'll just put you know, like for my how to write nonfiction, I put things like book title, as one chapter heading and then things like personal stories, quotes, you know, these were just one liners and then what I do is I fill in the blanks with nonfiction. The brilliant thing about Scrivener is the ability to drag and drop and this is why it's far superior to Microsoft Word or anything, you know, just that you drag and drop. You will never ever write nonfiction in order. You cannot. I really truly believe that it will just never work. So you're going to have to drag and drop it around and reorganize. And then for fiction, I generally start with my research. So there's in Scrivener, there's a manuscript part and a research part. So I will generally throw stuff in the research area and then I'll put my tentpole scenes, which are the you know, the big six Mine, like I just wrote a scene in Alcatraz, I knew I was going to have a scene on Alcatraz. So I, you know, had Alcatraz scene. And I knew I'd have one in Palma in New York. So I put that, you know, so, and then again, I kind of fill in the blanks, but yeah, the drag and drop. writing out of order is just just critical
James Taylor
there. We're gonna have links to your books as we finish up here. But I'd love to know, if there was one book you would recommend to other people. It could be on the craft of writing or the marketing side of things. What would that book be
Joanna Penn
the book I come back to over and over again, is turning pro, by Steven pressfield. Steve's been on my show three times now and I just worship the guy. It's so funny. Whenever I interview him, I'm like, Oh, hi, Steve. But he's he his work is very, has been a big impact on me. A lot of people talk about the War of Art, but for me, his book turning pro is the one I reread it probably every, you know, at least every year, generally more regularly, and I've got it on audio in print. In EDA, you know, it really is it. And the point is, and he it's hardcore. It's like the amateur is this, the pro does this? And it's like, What do you want? And for me, I want to be a professional writer for the rest of my life. So what? What do what can i emulate that will help me be a writer like Steve, for example, and stand the test of time. So yeah, that would be my recommendation, turning pro by Steven pressfield.
James Taylor
And final question for you. Let's imagine you woke up tomorrow morning, I'm going to New York, we're both big lovers of travel. So let you choose wherever you want to wake up, which city in the world place in a world you want to wake up to? But you have no books out, you have to restart again. But you do have all the skills you've acquired over the years. And although you don't have a platform, no one knows who you are. What would you do? How would you restart things?
Joanna Penn
I would I would just start writing again. I literally I would have a laptop. But I would literally just start writing again. And I would write we did mention series a little bit. I would think definitely start writing a series. I would probably start with nonfiction because it is easier to make immediate money with nonfiction. Because you can find a niche and write to it. Fiction takes a little longer to make money out off. Because, you know, you generally have to build up more of an audience. But yeah, I would aim to probably write three books in a niche and use the first one to start the marketing, put that for free, do some promotion and start building up that way. What I would say is, you know, there's a lot of people starting every day like don't feel it, you know, if you're listening, like you're like, you'll never get anywhere, because new people come along every day and break out every day. And he and I think what the amazing story for authors is if you ask people like who's your favorite author that often only, like less than 10 authors that people can name. Most authors are making a decent living, and no one's ever heard of them. So if you want to be a writer, this truly is the best time in history. Free to be one. So yeah, I would I would just get writing wonderful. And
James Taylor
if people want to learn more about you, and because you have an incredible site, absolutely lovely reading, you're saying your blog. So tell people where to go for that and tell if people want to just read your work more genuinely and learn about your books where they should go.
Joanna Penn
Yes, sure. And if you want to find lots more at thecreativepenn.com. And also my podcast, The Creative Penn Podcast, which is now almost at 400 episodes, so lots of backlist for people to listen to for free. Lots of Steven pressfield. And I'm on Twitter at the creative pen if anyone has any questions.
James Taylor
Well, Jonah, when I thought about putting this summit together, you one of the first people I really wanted to reach out to because you're such an authority. We weren't author You are such an authority also on writing and publishing as well. So thank you so much for coming on today. I'm looking forward to actually listening I'm going to after this I'm going to listen straight to that Steven pressfield one because I'm a huge fan as well. But thank you so much for coming on and all the best for your future writing.
Joanna Penn
Thanks so much for having me, James.
James Taylor
If you're interested in living a more creative life, then I'd love to invite you to join me as I share some of the most successful strategies and techniques that high performing creatives use. I put them all together in a free downloadable ebook that you can get by going to jamestaylor.me. That's jamestaylor.me. To get your free downloadable ebook on creativity.
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