Seeing Around Corners

For More of SuperCreativity Podcast By James Taylor

James Taylor  0:00  

I'm James Taylor and you're listening to the super creativity podcast the show dedicated to inspiring creative minds like yours. paradigm shifts in a business known as inflection points can either create new opportunities or present new threats. Those leaders who can see around corners and spot these inflection points before they happen can position themselves for success. Columbia Business School professor and innovation keynote speaker Rita McGrath's latest book, seeing around corners can show how you can anticipate, understand and capitalize on the key inflection points in your industry. In our discussion, Rita McGrath and I talk about the dangers of leader isolation, how companies like Adobe use little bets and the kickbox concept to spark innovation, and why many big company innovations - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

Rita McGrath  0:43  

flop,

James Taylor  0:44  

we also discuss webs of inclusion and the future of executive education. Enjoy the show.

So Rita, welcome to the super creativity podcast.

Rita McGrath  0:53  

It's a pleasure to be here.

James Taylor  0:55  

I've been loving your book, seeing around corners, how to spot inflection points in business before they happen. That's the important part before they happen. Tell us what you do when you talk about this idea of inflection points? What do you mean? Why, why are they so important?

Rita McGrath  1:11  

Well, then an inflection point as Andy Grove defined it back in the 90s is some force that creates a 10x change in something about your business. So it's a force that changes cost by 10x, or changes possibility by 10x, or changes efficiency by 10x. It makes the previous recipes for success less predictable.

James Taylor  1:34  

And so why is this so important? Now, especially as we're recording this, at the moment, we're going through some challenging, let's say, last 12 months or so for many businesses? Why? Why is this because you wrote this actually, the book came out before COVID? It was funny reading, I read it, obviously, during octave as we're kind of something that comes out hopefully, of COVID just now. So I thought, Wow, it would be so interesting, if a lot of people may like from pandemic, you know, awareness, all these things preparation could have read this book, beforehand. But anything you would have changed in the book before, you know, if you were kind of writing this book today, or what do you get it pretty much the same?

Rita McGrath  2:15  

Well, I probably have different examples. The basic concepts are the same. How do you see them? You know, and what that requires is the willingness to prepare for possibilities. And it's interesting, we're in the middle of these four major inflection points, right. So you've got the pandemic, obviously, then, before that, we had the environmental crisis that's been building up for a long time, of the crisis of the economy in inequality and the crisis of civil justice. And you know, you have all four of these now in the mix, changing things in ways that I'm not sure we can really predict. But we can prepare. And one of the things I would argue with even with a pandemic, it felt as though it happened overnight, and we weren't paying attention. But if you look at it, and there was a wall street journal article on this just a few weeks ago, that said, Not only was this predicted, it was a matter of when not whether, and the source was amazingly accurately predicted as being somewhere in southern China, and then given global trade spreading throughout the world. So this was actually foreseen by any number of people. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  3:18  

Now, in the book, you talk about this idea of leader isolation, which I thought was interesting, as we've been going through, obviously, every organization suddenly goes on zoom, Ms teams, or whatever, the technology. So this idea of lead isolation, is still relevant? Or is it perhaps more relevant as we're going into this? We're being virtual now in this hybrid world?

Dangers Of Leader Isolation

Rita McGrath  3:40  

Well, the basic concept is very relevant. And there's been a lot of evidence that shows the more power you have, the less likely you are to put yourself in other people's shoes, the less situational awareness you have, and the more people try to prevent you from understanding the truth. And I think it's a huge danger for those at the top of organizations to get so isolated because they literally don't know what's going on. I think what has changed now is we have more possibilities for breaking through that which I think is encouraging your whole organization on zoom. It's a matter of touching a couple of buttons to tap into conversations happening anywhere. And if you are the kind of leader who's open to that, it can actually create great opportunities to get out to what I call the edges and find out what's really going on. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  4:28  

Do you think some of your work with a lot of leaders of very large organizations? Have you seen their mindset change now that especially with zoom, for example, or where your cab now getting into people's living rooms you're seeing behind you're seeing the, you know, the child that kind of runs into the room, that parent has caregiving responsibilities? Do you see any of those things starting to reflect when the senior leaders you're talking with?

Rita McGrath  4:52  

Yeah, I do. I do. I think people are now aware they just need to be more patient and empathetic, you know the things Maybe used to not be acceptable a dog barking on a conference call, or as you said, a child jumping into the room or whatever people are just, you know, that's life right now, and you just can't avoid it. I do think there's a big split, you know, among leaders, there are those that are really comfortable with very distributed work. And let's meet once a week and the rest of the week, you will go off and do your thing, all the way through to those that are no, you know, being in the office being together is a critical element of our culture. And that's what we want to do. And I think you see a huge variation between the two. The other thing I think that leaders are starting to become aware of if they weren't before, now that we're all virtual, you know, any mistake, any misstep, any little flaw can be massively amplified. And so, at the same time, as we're seeing all this freedom, you know, this releasing of constraints, we have people being very careful because they're aware that the amplification effects of all these digital technologies, - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  5:56  

I'm sure that there's a lawyer, somewhere in one of the southern states of America that appeared as a think of a cat or a rabbit or something of reputational risk. They're the ones that the things I'd never heard about this. And I thought, there's a very nice about how you take innovation from being this kind of work can sound quite a big, heavy top-down imposing thing to something that's much more fluid, much more inclusive, as well was something you mentioned about Adobe, they call these little bets, these kick boxes, I think was the term. Can you explain a little bit about what those are and why you think they're so important for innovation?

Rita McGrath  6:31  

Yeah, so one of the things that we know increases rates of innovation is if you have multiple pots of resources, and if you have ways that people who are at the edges or are in the fringes or aren't officially designated as innovators, can participate, we know that that increases the quality and the number of good ideas. And so what Adobe did, this year years ago now is they invented a thing they call a kickbox, which is a little red box. And inside the box are some instructions, some post-it notes, because we're innovated via that post-it notes, there's a notebook for bad ideas. There's a Starbucks gift card, there's a candy bar. But the most important thing in the cupcake box is a $1,000 gift certificate, and anybody at Adobe is authorized to request a kickbox, they don't have to get permission for what they do with the $1,000. The only requirement is that they take what they've learned and contributed to a shared data set about all the different experiments that are going on most of the time, it's not going to lead to very much right, because most ideas are just ideas, then they're not really worthy of being taken to the next step. But if you think about it, you've got now got people who know something about innovation that had a chance to participate in the process, they've been given the resources in a distributed way, it's a great way of fostering little bets. And so say this, they do 1000 of these, well, it's a million dollars, right? But think about it, you've now got 1000 people that have been trained in innovation that understand something about it, that field, they own a piece of it, it's just a marvelous idea. I think - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  8:00  

one of my clients is his Red Hat widget and their colors, the color red. And it was funny because obviously, they were recently acquired by or coming together with IBM color blue. So in Adobe, they had these red boxes, but they also could have been moved up to a blue box, as well.

Rita McGrath  8:18  

And I'm told that in 23 cases, one of these red boxes turned into a blue box, and they won't tell me what's in the blue box.

James Taylor  8:26  

You get signed NDA for those. Something else you were talking about just in relation to the kind of planning process innovation process was something called Data Discovery driven planning. And as I was reading it, I was actually reminded of the writer Anne Lamott, who wrote a wonderful book about actually the process of writing. And in the book, remember, she said something like patrolling a long journey in a car, if you have your headlights on, you can see as far as the next, you know, a few 100 yards in front, but you can travel the whole journey that way by just seeing the 100 yards in front. So tell us a little bit about discovery-driven planning, and of this idea of checkpoints as well within that, 

Discovery Driven Planning

Rita McGrath  9:09  

yeah, so discovery-driven planning had its roots in some work that I did study in corporate flops. So actually, in my home office, just over there, I have a file, it's called my flops file, you have to lose your parent company at least $50 million to make it into my flops file and I'm thinking of raising the bar haven't gone away.

And so in the flops file is wonderful things like a recent addition would be kwibi You know, this quick bites video service where they spent one and a half billion dollars trying to demonstrate that we really wanted quick on the move entertainment when everybody was at home. Like not a good combination. When you look at these case studies of failed ventures from companies that you would think would know better, what you see is a common pattern, untested assumptions taken as facts, very few opportunities for low commitment testing. leaders are absolutely committed to this particular expression of a solution. Damn the torpedoes Full speed ahead, full funding everything upfront. And the core issue, we identified my co-author and I was that they were treating these uncertain new ventures as though they had facts. And so they were treating them as a typical corporate plan, right with a five-year plan and a forecast and financial everything and, and yet, with high levels of uncertainty, that's crazy. That's just insane. And so what we developed was a technique we call discovery-driven planning, which has five elements. The first is to define success and work backward into what must be true. And the tool there is called a reverse income statement. So unlike a traditional income statement, where you start off with how much money we brought in, and then you work your way, all the way to the bottom to how much money do we have left, what we say is no, start off with what you want to make, you know, or start off with the outcome, and then work your way back into what must be true for that outcome to occur. So that's a reverse income statement, then do some benchmarking, you know, do some market testing, are you being crazy? Does your profit requirement imply that you need to sell to 110% of the world's population because if it does, it's not realistic? So that's step two. Step three is to identify what needs to be happening in the world of operations. And this is where you start to get into your business model. And we recommend you, you play around with it and try different business models, you know, maybe you may acquire maybe it's a subscription, maybe it's a per unit, you can use some creativity. But each assumption that you make there is an assumption and we request that you document them. So right then you'll have a thing called an assumption checklist. And now we come to checkpoints. So a checkpoint is an event that will teach you something so initial customer interviews, doing the first prototype, revising the prototype, doing a pilot study, and all those things are checkpoints. And the philosophy behind discovery-driven planning is, as you described, which is your plan but you plan with immense care to the next checkpoint, and then you stop, and you ask what we call the race questions. Should we redirect? Maybe we've learned something that says this particular path isn't where we want to be? Do we accelerate? Maybe we need to move faster? Maybe we've learned enough we can really, you know, put the pedal on the gas and go? Do we need to just continue? Are we sort of on the right track? Or do we need to exit? Maybe we learned that this just isn't something that's going to be material or meet our criteria, or our assumptions have been proven to be wrong. And so you can think of it almost like instead of being the straight path towards a given goal, it's much more of a wandering path towards a goal that may evolve. And but it's much more friendly to uncertainty than a typical corporate plan. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  12:46  

That you that first when you were talking about going, going back reminded me that Charlie Munger, quote, invert, always invert kind of going, going back the way as well. I remember seeing, you know, you mentioned there about exiting, going having these checkpoints, then deciding, you know, maybe we accept me, we stop now. There are all kinds of sunk costs kinds of fallacy that you can have to deal with there as well. I saw a stat the other day, it said, I think it was in relation to innovation. I think maybe more like ideation sessions or brainstorming sessions, only about 18% of people that can go in and do these sessions actually looked to, to find ways to simplify the VAT, the most natural response is to go into adding Yes. And Okay, can we add this? Can we add that feature? Rather than eight more? How can we simplify? How can we strictly streamline? Do you speak about innovation? But then it's also how that crosses over with strategy as well. So now we're kind of getting into the strategic part. How did those things kind of marry because they often feel that innovation is like, yes? And doing more with a strategic strategy is saying, well, let's focus on maybe a few things that we're going to, we're going to spend our time and resources on. 

- Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

Strategy and Innovation 

Rita McGrath  14:00  

Well, there's a time to divert, introduce more variety, and then there's a time to converge and say, No, this is what we're actually going to do. And I think both have their role in the innovation process. So early on, you want to love divergence, you want a lot of ideas. You know, if you can't predict the future, which you can't, then variety is your best weapon. Because, you know, chances are if you've got 1000 tries, one of them might work if you've only got 10, you know, you're not so sure, but once you've identified the one that's going to work, that's where you really need to focus. So the way strategy and innovation converged to me is we used to think of strategy as centered on a thing called a sustainable competitive advantage. So the idea was, you found that attractive position in an attractive industry, you threw up entry barriers and created moats around it, and then you defended that position for a long period of time. And what's happened today, and it's been going on for a long time, his entry barriers are reducing. So we've got digitization, globalization, the ease of doing just about anything in software. For example, we've got The no-code revolution. So any difference even me can write a simple program. And it's as good as anything that a, you know, high octane coder can do. So we've got entry barriers dropping. And what that means is, instead of thinking of advantages as these big castles with moats, you need to be thinking of them more like waves. And what that means is that innovation, where the new advantages come from, has now moved to center stage. Because now we know we can't just do something once and it works. And that's great. And we live off it for a long period of time, we've got to be continually renewing and transforming. And so I think those two conversations have come together. And then underpinning it a lot is the digital agenda, which is, I don't think you can talk about innovation today without some reference to something digital, it's become so pervasive.  - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  15:49  

I'm James Taylor business, creativity, and innovation keynote speaker, and this is the Super Creativity Podcast. If you enjoy listening to conversations with creative thinkers, innovators, entrepreneurs, artists, authors, educators, and performance, then you've come to the right place. Each week we discuss their ideas, their life, their work, their successes and failures, their creative process, and much much more. You'll find show notes for today's episode, as well as free creativity training at Jamestaylor.me. If you're enjoying learning about Rita McGrath and check out my interview with Professor Roger Kneebone, where we discuss why experts matter, and how to develop mastery in your chosen profession. Here's my conversation with Roger Kneebone at Jamestaylor.me. After the break, we returned to my interview with Professor Rita McGrath, where we talk about the future of executive education. This week's episode is sponsored by SpeakersU the online community for international speakers, SpeakersU helps you launch, grow and monetize your speaking business faster than you ever thought possible. If you want to share your message as a highly paid speaker, then SpeakersU will teach you how to just go to SpeakersU.com to access their free speaker business training. 

You share something I think was on Twitter the other day, I think Tiffani Bova originally posted it, which was boardroom agendas, those words it gets spoken about more things, again, spoken about less. So down in our charts at the moment is purpose, culture, diversity, and innovation. Like things we've obviously spoken about, the end of resilience is the term of resilience. And I think you tweeted and you said that depressing was just use for it. So do you think this is just a cyclical thing where we're in, we're just in at this point in time just now? And you think we're going to start cost correcting and diversity, equity, inclusion, culture, innovation is going to come back up again? Or do you think this is actually a real chance that we're that maybe innovation is becoming a less interesting thing, some of these boards? - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

 

Rita McGrath  17:47  

Well, I think boards respond to the environment that they're in. And I think a lot of organizations, you know, we're in a, in a case shaped economy recovery, right? So if you're doing well, chances are, you're doing really well. And if you're doing badly, if you're an airline, or a hotel or a restaurant, you know, you're in survival mode. And that's where I would suspect a lot of the board's attention is focused because all the other things matter less if you're facing an existential threat. So I don't think it's a permanent shift, at least I hope, because, you know, if you think about it, from a talent point of view, of being talented young people don't want to go work at a place where culture and diversity and inclusion are not on the agenda where there's no sense of purpose, where there's no sense of, you know, I'm gonna wake up in the morning, eating, sleeping, dreaming about this company that doesn't care about me doesn't care about planet doesn't care about the world. I mean, nobody's gonna want to do that. So if you're that kind of organization, you're not going to have your pick of talent. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  18:45  

You mentioned a phrase in the book I'd had before. And I really loved this phrase and webs of inclusion. And it was related to a part of the book, we talked about women leaders, women, leadership styles in organizations. So tell me about this idea of webs of inclusion. I think it's quite an interesting term. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

Webs Of Inclusion

Rita McGrath  19:02  

Yeah. So what that means is that rather than a hierarchy where there's a power Center at the top, and sort of splits of information and identity going down, as it were, webs of inclusion basically said, we've got a much more horizontal flow of information and connection. And the reason that matters, is if you agree that the world is a complex and shifting place, what you want is as much information to flow horizontally as you possibly can because that's where you're going to pick up these weak signals and then connect them to each other. So let's talk about a specific case because that might be an example that might make it more clear. So in the book, I talked about the German metal servicing firm Klockner. And their CEO Gisbert was very concerned that his efforts to take the company into the digital age would get stymied by people who you know, not meaning bad, but, you know, we're very attuned to the old way of working and the old way of success. And so one of the things he instilled ended in his change effort was what he calls nonhierarchical communication in the form of Yammer, which is a Microsoft product similar to slack and, you know, communication product. And he made it absolutely clear in the organization that anybody, anybody who saw anything, heard anything, had an opinion about something, we should feel free to communicate with him, and he was going to communicate with him. And I'm told, I don't know this for a fact. But I'm told that inside headquarters, he was he instructed his it people to take the sort of hierarchically lower in the organization, and the person communicating with him was, their messages would be elevated, the higher the person was, their messages would be diminished. And that was very deliberate because he said, you know, the information I need is not from my senior vice presidents, although that's good information. But I need to talk to the people who are working in the factory in Duisburg, who see something weird going on with the customer, and can tell me about it. And so that's an example of these horizontal lines of communication, which the web of inclusion idea encompasses - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  21:00  

that that requires, I'm guessing some confidence from that senior leader to do that, to give to give, you know, to not give away but to, to open like that. Okay, I see a lot of organizations, what they often tend to do is they'll do a client advisory board. So they'll bring in the top clients, the heads of their top clients, who all look like them sound like them, you know, may be similar in a similar education as well. And then they wonder why they never see that thing that, you know, that was like, so obvious on the ground floor on the factory floor as well. When you can maybe talk to some of those leaders, I know you can work with and you work in the executive education side of education as well. How do you chip away at that? How do you make that maybe that hard, bitten CEO? There's like, why should they? Why should they do this? Give me some real reasons why they should decide Raj a nice thing to do? - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

Rita McGrath  22:03  

Well, I'm really good at creating scary scenarios for the future. Just let me tell you 10 ways your competitive advantage is going to go away, I think it's a question of letting them come to those conclusions. So presenting the evidence in a digestible way and letting them understand, you know, if I'm behaving this way, there's critical information I'm not going to get, I also have a few tricks that I use, I have a, I have a set of interviews done with CEOs when their companies were at the top of their game. And then we look at what happened to them. A lot of times, it's not a pretty sight. The other thing I do is I'll present them with early warnings that I see. So let me give you an example that that just makes it more clear. So I was working with a company that produces a lot of goods that are meant for babies. And I was talking to them about some possible scenarios for the future. This is about a year ago before we really understood what was happening in the pandemic. And at the time, there was a lot of theorizing that, oh, we're going to be in for a baby boom, because everybody's at home with nothing to do you know, and that sort of thing. And I said, No, I don't think so. First of all, for a lot of women in their childbearing years, this is an incredibly stressful period and experience, and they're not going to be keen to add to the stress. But secondly, you know, we know if you're cheek by jowl with somebody all day long, that is not necessarily a romantic event. So I said to them, have you ever thought about what would happen if it was a baby bust? And they looked at me in horror, and they said, That's never even crossed our radar? And I said, Well, why isn't that a big deal for your business? Because they make products that get sold to parents and babies? Yeah, but what we've been thinking about is government regulations about single-use plastic, we haven't even thought about the fact that three years from there, there may be a million fewer babies than would normally have been born. And so you know, sometimes if you bring up something that they haven't been thinking about that can get enough, what, you know, an overreaction that they begin to take it seriously. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  24:00  

I had one of those experiences recently. I was giving a keynote for an organization, it was the Association of briefing program managers ABPM. So they do these big executives, it's all the people from these big organizations that have these executive briefing centers, and actually talking about this idea of the third place and creativity and innovation. And one of the things all these in person, big, you know, expensive briefing centers for many organizations, they've had to move to virtual and then that now kind of think, Okay, how do we how does this work to hybrid as well? And I was actually saying, look, this already organizations are doing this not just the move from in-person to virtual to hybrid, but in the case of Columbia, you're actually moving to hyflex you know, as well and you can do look at education, glucose teachers are having to figure this stuff educators, so you're your, your professor at Columbia University, at the business school there as well. So I'm wondering Where do you see, especially executive education? going just now? Because this is, it feels like everyone's having to rescale upskill recycle their skills? Where do you see the executive education going in this new time of hybrid, or high flight hyperflex?

Rita McGrath  25:20  

Well, I think a great example of embracing the puck potential is Columbia is launching our new Advanced Management Program. And it was a four-week intensive, you know, the kind of thing you do when you're at this pivotal moment in your career, and you really need to grow to the next leadership level. And when it was in person, it was four weeks intensive, you know, really just change your life kind of experience. And what we've done now is we've partnered with a company called noodle that is creating a much more spread out. So it now is 22 weeks, which sounds formidable, but it's not 22 weeks full time, it's a mixture of learning, apply, absorb, take back, there'll be an in-person component. But it's not that, you know, your bottom end and a chair for four weeks listening to sage on the stage, it's much more immersive, it's much more intertwined with the way that you're actually doing your work. And I think we're going to see a lot more of that kind of thing. Because what we know about learning is you learn best when you apply immediately, you learn best when you share with others, you learn best when the learning takes place close in time to the application. And so I think what we're seeing is a move in Executive Education towards real capability building rather than, you know, kind of absorb all this information. But then what do you do with it right? In my own personal work, I'm also building a platform that I hope will be a companion to genuine application, and that will have learning built into it. And it's actually built around these checkpoints that I mentioned earlier. So you get to a checkpoint that's called, let's say, customer segmentation. And if you're confused about that, or you want to know more, you click on over to a resource site, which will have some videos and lectures, some downloadable spreadsheets, some things you can work with, that will allow you to get smarter, then you go back and you apply, you say, oh, gee, I must have missed something, go back to the learning resources. So it's kind of integration of learning with doing. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  27:15  

So if we go moving a bit more from this sage on the stage to the guide on the side, then what is the function of an executive education campus as a physical place? What is it? What role does it have now it's not better just to go and do retreats, pick other interesting kinds of places?

Executive Education

Rita McGrath  27:33  

I think there's still a benefit in coming together. I mean, who wouldn't want to spend a week in New York, you know, because you're not in class the whole time. There's also the surrounding environment. And so I think there's still going to be a room for physical places, but I think there'll be augmented by other things. So for instance, I could see a subscription kind of service where perhaps you have four, think of them like almost retreats a year, but the rest of the time you're online, and you have a certain level of the subscriber, you can come to the retreat and hobnob with people. And, yeah, I think there's going to be a super hunger for people to meet in person once we feel it's safe to do so I think people are feeling very deprived right now. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  28:12  

Yeah, we will definitely think we want to start connecting. Again, I think we just were where I'm actually based in the UK. They just made hugging legal again. So we're officially on Monday, we're allowed to hug people again, I'm not so sure if I'm happy with the idea of random people hugging me. But I'm seeing around corners. This is what the book would be talking about? I will put links here on the show notes. What are you working on next? What's next on the cards for you? 

Rita McGrath  28:37  

Well, I'm working on this company that's basically around capability building for innovation. So the goal is to make innovation and transformation and actual capability. It's called bullies. And we're so what it is, it's a learning platform. It's an advisory platform. So skill-building is almost like an executive education thing with a software spine that gives it structure. So it's not a software offering. But it's a software-involved offering because what doesn't involve software these days. So that's a big push for me. I'm also beginning to work on the next book, which I think is going to be involved with, where do these inflection point creating innovations really come from something about what's the spark that gets those things going, something like that, perhaps digging more into the antecedents to true inflection points, because we know they take a long, long time before they actually become something you can touch and feel. So I'm doing some work on continuing my work at Columbia. So those are probably the three biggest things I'm working on right now. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  29:37  

Well, we are looking forward to the new book whenever that comes out and tracking everything you're doing with this, this new online learning platform that you're building. Rita McGrath, thank you so much for coming on the show just now where's the best place if you want to learn more about your academic work your writing, or your things you've got going on your speaking where's the best place to go and learn about that?

Rita McGrath  29:57  

So I have a super creatively named website. called RitaMcGrath.com. A good place to start. I also have some doing weekly little newsletters, I do a monthly deep-dive newsletter and you can find out about those on medium and subject. Those are also two great resources, search my name and those two places you'll find me. And then if you want to learn more about the capability company, you go to www.valize.com. And if you go to deeper dive, that'll take you to downloadable resources, videos, articles, it's a link to my Twitter feed, all kinds of stuff there. So that's another great resource. - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners

James Taylor  30:33  

Well, we thank you so much for coming on the super creativity podcast today. I wish you great success with everything that lies ahead.

Rita McGrath  30:39  

Thanks so much. Thank you for having me.

James Taylor  30:42  

You can subscribe to the SuperCreativity podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. While you're there. Please leave us a review. I would really, really appreciate it. I'm James Taylor. I knew I've been listening to the SuperCreativity podcast - Business Strategy: Seeing Around Corners