The Difference Between Creativity And Innovation

For More of SuperCreativity Podcast By James Taylor

James Taylor  0:00  

I'm James Taylor, and you're listening to the super creativity podcast show dedicated to inspiring creative minds like yours. Instead of shooting for a $10 billion IPO or a Nobel Prize, the most prolific innovators focus instead on big metal breakthroughs, small creative acts that unlock massive rewards over time. By building a daily habit of creativity organizations not only enjoy a high volume of small wins, but the daily practice of micro innovations is the fastest route to discover the massive breakthroughs we seek his new book, big little breakthroughs. Innovation keynote speaker, a New York Times bestselling author Josh Linkner, shows how ordinary ideas can feel extraordinary results. Josh is a creative troublemaker who passionately believes that we all have incredible creative capacity. He has been the founder and CEO of five tech companies, which sold for a combined value of over $200 million. Today, he serves as chairman and co-founder of platypus labs, Innovation Research, training and consulting firm. Josh is also a passionate Detroiter, and a great jazz guitarist, Josh and I discussed the difference between creativity and innovation, how the creative process works, creative problem solving, and the three types of innovation. Enjoy the show. 

So Josh, link, no Welcome to the super creativity podcast. Great to have you with us today.

Josh Linkner  1:24  

It's always a pleasure to be with you, my friend.

James Taylor  1:26  

Now you have a new book out. And it's a stonker. Our book, as we will see here in the UK, is called Little breakthroughs. And you start off by having a quote at the start of an angle go quote, which is great things are done by a series of small things brought together. So tell us about this. Tell us what the inception of the idea was why, why this book now?

Josh Linkner  1:50  

Yeah, so the book is called Big Little breakthroughs, how small everyday innovations drive oversized results, and it sort of flips the traditional view of innovation upside down. Instead of shooting for like this giant, wildly risky swings for the fences, transformations. It's more about cultivating small daily habits, daily acts are micro innovations, which are far more accessible to more people, they're less risky, they add up to great things, and they build skill at the same time. So I wanted to make this book like innovation for the rest of us. You know, it's kind of like helping everyday people become everyday innovation innovators. So it's not only for the Elon Musk's of the world but more importantly for normal people trying to harness creativity to make a meaningful impact and the things that they care about the most in their lives.

James Taylor  2:32  

Now, the first chapter, the opening part of the book is fantastic, you really you're immediately pulled into the story, and I'm not going to give anything away. But it's a great story about cigarette butts, I will leave that people have to get a copy of the book to read it. But the character in that book, he said an interesting thing he said, he always felt that all the creative people were in the creative industries. So I'm guessing in writing this book, that was maybe one of the myths you were looking to bust.

Josh Linkner  3:00  

Yeah, you're exactly right. And I always cringe when someone says, oh, the creatives they sit on the second floor, you know, as opposed to why shouldn't we all be creative. And that is a myth. And I think it's important that we tackle and that creativity is not relegated to somebody who can paint or play music. And it's certainly not only for people that write code, or invent stuff in a lab or are the CEO, really all of us and you know this too, but we all as human beings have huge reservoirs of great creative capacity. we're hardwired to be creative. That's our natural state. And in fact, we can deploy those skills in any job function. I'd say, Well, people in finance should be creative. And I'm often met with well, but then they break the law. Of course, we're not telling people to break the law. But why couldn't you be creative in finance, you could you could interpret insights between inside the numbers better, you can compile reports better. I mean, if you're trying a case to a jury, you absolutely should be creative. If you're in sales, you should be creative. If you're in customer service, you can be creative. So the notion of, you have to be wearing a hoodie or a lab coat to be creative. I'm trying to bust that myth. And say, really, creativity is something that is accessible to us all. It can be helpful and useful to us all.

James Taylor  4:05  

One of the stats that you shared, which I never seem to start, was that from a Harvard professor, a university professor called Stephen Tomkey, global nickname, right? He said that 77% of economic growth is attributed to small creative advances, not radical information. You speak all over the world and virtual for the biggest companies in the world as well. It seems to want a business they often feel a bit more comfortable talking about innovation rather than creativity. So do you think this is maybe starting to change now?

Innovation VS Creativity

Josh Linkner  4:35  

Well, yeah, I think there are actually two points that you're raising. They're both excellent points. One is that, you know, we think of creativity, or we think of innovation as these giant breakthroughs, you know, Ilan Musk, or Richard Branson, but that innovation is outside the grasp of most of us. And in fact, well, that grabs the headlines. That doesn't really what isn't really what fuels the economy. And as you point out, this Harvard professor is talking about 77% of economic progress doesn't come from those sets. attention-grabbing, you know giant breakthroughs. It comes from the everyday breakthroughs, that how you run your Monday morning meeting better, how you engage with the client better, a slight tweak in your product to make it more serving a better serving to a customer. So, again, I think there's so much that we can, as human beings gain and leverage and grow from creativity without having to be a billionaire investor. But the second thing you point out really quickly is the difference between creativity and innovation. And James, I'm really curious to hear your definition of this too. Because you and I, we're both, you know, passionate devotees of this. We've devoted our life's work to creativity and innovation, the way I think of it. And again, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. I think of creativity as somebody who's using imagination to come up with something that has intrinsic value but may not have utility or commercial value. So if I write a song, you might say, well, that that's creative. But unless it's, you know, top 10 hits, I probably don't make any money from it, maybe it doesn't change the world. So it might be an act of creativity, and that I invented something new, but it doesn't have utility value. When I think about innovation, I think of innovation as a subset of creativity, so it certainly requires creativity. But to me, innovation is adding on the extra benefit of having utility value. So if I do not, instead of just creating a bad song that no one wanted to hear, but I invented a new instrument that lots of people bought, and it became a new part of the musical genre, that would be more of an innovation. But I'm curious, does that align with how you think about those two words?

James Taylor  6:18  

It's funny because obviously, we both speak on creativity, innovation is one of the questions we get asked a lot. And so often, we have to kind of raise it right at the start of a presentation, we can say what the difference, the way, the way I've always thought about it was that creativity and innovation and just different sides of the same coin. So creativity, I think, is the engine of innovation. Creativity is about bringing new ideas to the mind. Innovation is about bringing new ideas to the world. But without creativity, there isn't innovation. But that's just my personal take on it. But one of the things I really thought you did really nicely in this book was broken apart that word of innovation. And you actually refer to like, talking about innovation three different ways. And could you just tell us about it? I think it's a really nice distinction that you've made there.

Josh Linkner  7:06  

Yeah. So again, we often hear words like innovation, it feels so big and so overwhelming. It's so scary, so risky, that it's easy to gravitate to doing nothing. And so I think that there are different levels or magnitudes for lack of a better term of innovation, yet, they're all innovation. Just like if you have a magnitude 9.0 earthquake, which would level a city, or a 2.4 magnitude earthquake, which can barely be felt, there's still both seismic events like this to both counts. So here's how I think about it. Again, I'd love to hear your thoughts, James. But think about innovation in all capital letters, innovation, and that, yeah, that's Tesla. That's the printed printing press. That's the internet, that's penicillin. And these are the, you know, once every handful of years breakthroughs that make history. But again, there's that's a small, perhaps reach a number of innovations. Let's click on that once and say okay, now but the second flavor, innovation, which is a capital I so capitalized the rest of it lowercase. And these might be innovations that rather than taking, you know, a superhero to discover, any one of us might find two or three of these a year, maybe you come up with a new way to better serve clients or you in your speaking business, come up with a new speaker video that that really, you drive drives more demand. So these are meaningful, juicy innovations that matter, they count, they ring the register. But again, they may not make the cover of a magazine, they're not going to be you know, known 300 years from now for that particular thing. Nonetheless, it's still really valuable and still something we should absolutely strive for. But my favorite is one more double click on that word, all lowercase innovation, or I also call them big little breakthroughs, which are those micro innovations. And while you might have two or three of, you know, innovations with a capital in a year, you might have two or three lowercase innovations every morning, you might have five or six of them a day. And I love thinking of creativity and innovation this way. Because if we cultivate those little ones, we can always be testing little stuff out. And we know full well that they're not all going to work, they're not all going to be productive. But when you get in the habit, when we make that part of who we are, when we're always looking for those little baby innovations, lowercase innovations, it just first of all liberating it's like so within our grasp. But then again, those little wins add up in a big way, and ultimately can help us achieve the things that we care about the most.

James Taylor  9:14  

It feels like the way that the book goes, it feels much more accessible. I think when you talk about innovation in this way as well. It's I mean, obviously you're a jazz musician, as well. So we have this common interest in jazz music. And sometimes I find if I would be if I was in context with people that weren't into jazz music, let's say if I use the word improvisation that was like, Oh, that's a bit that sounds that sounds really hard. And we're going to stay away from that word. But if you just said the theme and variation, then it feels a little bit more approachable. It's a little bit so just sometimes kind of shifting that word brings a lightness to it. I think that's what you've done in this. You've kind of just brought a lightness to this idea of innovation.

Josh Linkner  9:56  

Well, thank you for speaking of jazz, so yeah, for those that don't know, you know, ginger, your father is an app. Brilliant jazz guitarists like off the crazy like the top of the field. And your wife is a fabulous jazz vocalist. So you are very lucky to be surrounded,

James Taylor  10:08  

surrounded by all this talent. Yes. Well,

The Creative Process 

Josh Linkner  10:11  

you are certainly contributing as well, my friend. But you know, I'm sure you've seen this many times. But you know, we think of jazz musicians as these like, you know, legendary mythical creative people. But I would argue that the culture of a jazz combo really is optimally set up. In other words, I don't think that jazz musicians are any more inherently creative than anybody else. But by being in that situation where you're encouraged to take responsible risks, that is the culture actually drives more creativity. In other words, if your dad or I were in right on the stage playing a jazz gig, and we played it safe, we might get laughed off the stage. But if we played it took a risk and played a terrible clunker. Note, well played twice more, call it art, everything is fine. No kidding aside, that it's just a very supportive collaborative process. You know, the other thing that's neat about jazz, which, you know, is like you and I didn't script our conversation today, we just got on, you know, we're playing off of each other. And for those that don't know, that's really what jazz is, if we were in a jazz combo that played the same song every night for 10 years, every night, it would be different, because it's really a conversation among the musicians and certainly with the audience as well. And I think there's a real parallel to creativity that we think of creativity often has this, you know, the lone wolf writing in a log cabin writing this, you know, a great novel or something. And there are instances of that, but I like this notion of jazz riffing and collaboration better. Whereas, let's say we're playing a jazz gig and, and I play some not so great on the guitar, and then the bass player picks it up and then takes a little bit next app, and then the drummer grabs it and grabs the rhythm on assemble, and then the sax player hears something in it and rips the solo to the delight of the crowd, who invented that like it was a collaborative process. And I think that we can learn so much from those jazz combos and that it's not only about being a great listener or being a great soloist, but it's also about passing the baton back and forth and letting those sparks fly and co-creating together.

James Taylor  11:51  

And one of the words you used was that word riffing, I saw a quote the other day by Andy Jassy who is going to be taken over from Jeff Bezos at Amazon at the end of the year. And he was saying the plan is to really come back to more office, bring people back into the offices in a very soon, you know, I've post kind of post-pandemic, and he just said, one of the reasons we want to do this is we're just finding in his words, we're not riffing in the same way. We're finding innovation as being kind of productive, but not necessarily as innovative as we could be. So I'm interested in your, your kind of creative process, your own work as well. Have you found this period of maybe self-imposed kind of isolation? For a few months? Has this been a creative time for you? Or have you? Do you kind of Thrive a lot more on having those improvisations and having conversations?

Three Types Of Innovation

Josh Linkner  12:41  

Well, there are actually a couple of different things in there. So it actually hasn't been a creative time for me, because I've had more time and space to be creative. You know, one of the things that is very difficult, as you know, being creative, as if you're trying to squeeze creativity in between calls and meetings, and you have 11 minutes, and darn it be creative, right now, it's hard to do that like your creativity needs a little bit of room. So in that regard, it's been very productive for me creatively. But I wouldn't say this. I was thinking about it, maybe I get, I'm curious to hear your thoughts to James. But think about two types of work, heads-down work, and heads-up work. And there are times that we need to head down, we need to get our job done, we need to be productive, we need to finish the memo or finish the report or whatever. And I think that time, heads-down work absolutely is great to be done if you know, separately doesn't have to be in the same office because it's lone, solitary work. But there's another part of the job. Most jobs are heads-up work, which is collaborating with others imagining the possibilities, noticing the world around you instead of being buried into your to-do list. And that part is really difficult to do isolated. And so I think when we what may happen in the future of work as we think about, alright, spend your heads downtime work at home, remote, but when it's time for a little bit heads uptime, that's the time to be together. Yeah, there's no point in doing a 90-minute commute to your office door and lock yourself in a room while I do that might as well stay at home. But that's something you can do. Unless you're with others. That's the time to be in the office. That's that heads-up time. And are you right, I fully believe that. We're going to need more of that. That's why I don't think offices are entirely going away.

James Taylor  14:07  

I'm James Taylor, business creativity and innovation keynote speaker and this is the super creativity podcast. If you enjoy listening to conversations with creative thinkers, innovators, entrepreneurs, artists, authors, educators and performers, then you've come to the right place. Each week we discuss their ideas, life, work, successes, failures, creative process, and much more. You'll find show notes for today's episode as well as free creativity training at Jamestaylor.me. If you enjoyed learning about Josh Linkner, then check out my interview with author and marketing guru Seth Godin, where we discuss his creative process, the potential impact of artificial intelligence on human creativity and vodka making. Here my conversation with Seth Godin at Jamestaylor.me. After the break, we returned to my interview with Josh Linkner where we discussed heads down heads up creative work This week's episode is sponsored by SpeakersU the online community for international speakers, speakers, you helped you launch, grow, and monetize your speaking business faster than you thought possible. If you want to share your message as a highly paid speaker, then speakers you will teach you how just go to SpeakersU.com to access their free speaker business training, as you were mentioning that I was selling remember the back of my mind, there was a Bill Evans, the big great jazz pianist story where he built this career as a musician, you can really in demand, he's working with all these amazing musicians. And then he kind of went on like an almost like a self-imposed sabbatical, I guess, or I went back into his garage for I think it was for a long time as but nearly a year. And he broke everything that he was doing, he broke it all down. And when he came out of it, he'd always found more of his voice in that process by going a little bit quieter. During that time taking things back to basics. You're working on some of those core kinds of fundamentals as well. So I guess, I hope that maybe lots of people have kind of used this time, you know, I know you're writing books, and you're doing things to kind of maybe get back some of those fundamentals. Think of what that voice is? What do I want to say, what do I want to kind of work on?

Creative Problem Solving

Josh Linkner  16:15  

Yeah, I mean, really, there's not a right or wrong here. And I think there's really probably a combination of both. I mean, sometimes I need to marinate on an idea alone and have the time and space to do that. And you're right, sometimes that self-reflection can be very deliberative, as it relates to creativity, because you're not just relying on the patterns that you already know, giving you some time and space to invent new ones. But I also think that the co-creation process can be effective, too. I think the real trap isn't so much, which is the optimal place to be creative. It's recognizing what are the things that drain our creativity, and also prioritizing and making this a core part of our lives. And I think maybe in the past in the workforce, creativity was a nice to have when we live in a different era where you could do what you're told and follow the rules and retire with a gold watch. But today, we live in a world of mind-numbing speed and change in technology and competition. And I don't think we have that luxury anymore. And in fact, many of those hard skills of the past to become commoditized or outsourced or automated, whereas the real value is his creative problem solving and inventive thinking. And I think that, you know, well, we've been taught in school, that that's what we should focus on those hard skills, I think we need to really change that script a bit, and focus on cultivating our own gift of human creativity, which all of us have, and not all of us fully develop. And it's almost like I don't mind if someone's alone, or if they're together as long as they're being creative. And I think the core message that you and I both share is that let's bring more creativity to our lives into our work to enjoy more productive outcomes.

James Taylor  17:35  

Absolutely. And in big little breakthroughs. The first part of the book is really kind of demystifying creativity taking people through your view on the creative process. And then it moves into the second part of the book, which really provides a framework for inventive thinking, more creative problem-solving. And I think there's like there's kind of eight key things, we don't have time to kind of go through some of them. But one of my there was one that I saw, which I really, really love. And it's this concept of playing offense and defense with creativity. Can you explain that to the audience?

Josh Linkner  18:11  

Sure. So we often think of innovation in a very limited way, we think of it as growing sales or inventing a new product, or maybe it's marketing. But there's really a role. And so I think about offense-based creativity or offense-based innovation. In other words, you're trying to put points on the board and grow and win and all that. But I think it's also important to look at, you know, you mentioned the other side of the coin, the other side of the coin here, I would loosely call it defense-oriented creativity, which might be how can you use your creativity to save costs, or to reduce errors in a manufacturing process or to boost safety at a construction site. And so it's not that one is worse than the other, it's just offense-based creativity that tends to get all the focus and attention. But there's so much opportunity for all of us to apply the superpower of creativity to not just growth, but also cost savings and safety and other things that are maybe less sexy, but ultimately do still create value.

James Taylor  19:03  

Now I don't know if you saw it, there was a thing this week, I thought was quite interesting. I'm not sure who the university was, it did the research. But they looked at when people are trying to solve, or companies trying to solve problems. Only 17% of people are trying to solve problems, actually look to reduce things, reduce the number of inputs, make things leaner, simplify, the vast majority kind of go and try to add features and make things more complicated. I'm just wanting to in the book, you're talking too much about that about you. The second part of the book is really talking about creative problem-solving. What are some of the things that we can do that maybe aren't necessarily about adding new things, but maybe potentially subtracting making things a little bit simpler, a bit more of a minimalist essentialist view of life?

Josh Linkner  19:55  

Yeah, so you're right that so the back half of the book, you know, through the book was I spent over $1,000 in research And interviews with CEOs and billionaires and celebrity entrepreneurs and Grammy Award-winning artists. And I tried to understand what is the connective tissue, and the back half of the book covers the eight what I call obsessions or mindsets of everyday innovators. And these really transcend geography and industry etc. But so there are these core mindsets that are, by the way, very easy to embrace, they don't require years of study or millions of dollars of investment, there are ways of thinking and approaching our work to really elevate our creativity and create better results. And so but one of them that, you know, answers your question, I think, is kind of a funny term, but I call it using every drop of toothpaste, which is essentially being scrappy, and doing more with less being, you know, to your point being reductionist and as streamlined as opposed to just throwing resources at it. Now, very often, we think that to solve a problem, we have to throw resources, more money, more, more equipment, more materials, more, more, more. But think about this, if the number of external resources that you had equaled the level of creativity that you had, the federal government would be the most creative organization on the planet, and startups would be the least. But we know the exact opposite is true. So is I actually back to music for a second. No, I was studying music in college, I had a professor, I played jazz guitar, and you know that that would force me to remove strings from the instrument. So he would make me take off one, two, sometimes three strings from the guitar. And intuitively, you'd say, Well, now my resources are cut in half, my creativity is going to really suffer. But the surprising and counterintuitive thing happened when I was resource-constrained, I can no longer rely on the patterns that I need. In other words, I solve musical problems in a totally fresh and new way. And actually, it was a boost to my creative ability. So you're exactly right, James, that we don't always need to add stuff. Sometimes by removing stuff actually, by streamlining, we can find more clever, more inventive, more imaginative ways forward.

James Taylor  21:50  

It's almost like there's the Japanese or there are haikus where you've got this very limited form in which you need to create and so it really pushes you to try like how I've got to try and create in this form as well. One of the things that are really nice about the book is it does feel very much like everyday innovations. And you know, people can really get started doing some of these and one of the first phrases or the little things you mentioned in the book is dinner minutes. So, this is if you haven't read the book, you could after the read the book, because there's lots of little great little thing that they just that little mind hooks, I know, I'm going to be thinking over the next week. So tell us about dinner men's and its impact upon our innovation.

Josh Linkner  22:34  

Yeah, so when we think about and I've talked to so many companies around the world, and I'm like, Well, what, what really separates you from the competition, like, Oh, we have really good customer service, or our products are reliable and look, nothing wrong with that. But that today, that's just the ante to play. That's not a differentiator, that's just a basic minimum level of competence. And so the principle that you're describing is called Don't forget the dinner mint. And here's, here's the concept behind it. I'm sure James, you and your wife have been to a nice restaurant, perhaps in London, and you're waiting for the check. And then all of a sudden, there's a little extra chocolate compliments of the chef. And because it's something unexpected, that surprise and delight, it completely transforms your experience. And as a proportionate to the overall meal or like the cost structure of that restaurant, it was negligible, but a little extra, something that little extra flourish, completely elevated the meal. And so the concept of a dinner meant isn't so much a piece of food, but it's the idea of plussing up whatever your work product is by 5% or less. In other words, what's that little extra twist that little extra creative flourish that you can once before you hit send, like before you're about to deliver your work? Could you add a little extra creative, something to make yours otherworldly to make it really stand out from the competitive set? There are all kinds of fun examples, but one that comes to mind. There was this woman named Melissa tabs. And Melissa, her family was from Italy. They were ice cream and gelato makers and such. So she moved to New York and she wants to be in the ice cream business. But how do you possibly compete in such a competitive market? And nobody wants another commodity, even if it's good vanilla ice cream. Who cares? And she was worried like how is she going to stand out? And so she said, I have to embrace this dinner mint philosophy. She started thinking What else can I add, like a little extra something so that my ice cream is different than everybody else's?'' And one day she was having a glass of wine or something and she says wait a minute, what if I fused alcohol. And so she worked and tinkered around and she figured out a way to make booze-infused ice cream for a brand called a tipsy scoop. And she has brands like ice cream like chocolate limoncello and, and cake batter Martini ice cream, and proportionally against less than 5% of the overall weight of the ice cream, not to mention her cost structure. But in a highly competitive commoditized market. She has flourished and she has two wildly successful retail stores. She has a best-selling cookbook. She does corporate catering, she ships all over the world. And it was because this dinner meant strategy. So the takeaway I think for each of us is to say okay, before we just deliver with excellence and competence, could we add a little extra something to enjoy a disciplined Passionate reward.

James Taylor  25:02  

And there're so many wonderful little vignettes like that little examples, one that reminds me of healthy gum. So people are gonna have to get their copy of the book to understand what healthy gum

Josh Linkner  25:13  

means. But

James Taylor  25:15  

there are so many great now you're, you are a great advocate and a promoter of the city in which you live in Detroit. And I got the opportunity, my wife and I got options to come and visit with you and Detroit. And you are a host. And it was just a wonderful, wonderful time on my first visit to the city. So how are you feeling just now with all the changes that have been going on going on? It feels like there's maybe a little bit of a new roaring 20s starting if you're starting to feel that in Detroit yet.

Josh Linkner  25:43  

I'm really excited about Detroit's future, as you probably know. And Funny enough, 100 years ago, Detroit was sort of the Silicon Valley of our country. And then we kind of lost our way instead of doing what you and I love being creative and innovative. We started administering bureaucratic corporations. And, and I think a lot of the problems that we've had, we're a direct result of our are drifting away from our creative roots. But this is a city with a soul. And I and when you were here, you saw a little bit of it, but this one's Broken City is now bouncing back and a new life is taking root. And there are art galleries and museums, and music and food, and it's a really cool town. And look, we still have some work to do. It's not utopia yet, but it's definitely on the rise. And I believe this, this 10 year period or so will be studied for decades to come as one of the great turnaround stories of our generation. So I'm really optimistic. I mean, it's a place with gritty, scrappy people that know how to make stuff. It's a place with wild levels of creativity and passion. And I'm very optimistic about my hometown. You know, I've had the chance to leave many times. But I always wanted to stay. You know, I was born in the city as my parents, as were my grandparents. So I'm a proud Detroiter,

James Taylor  26:47  

well, if anyone listening to this, if you're not from the US, or maybe if you are from the US, and when we get to travel again, try and get to Detroit, I was really blown away, I thought it was a fascinating place to somewhere I definitely want to go back to as well. I want to know, where's the best place for people to go to learn about, get a copy of their book and also learn about your other books, and they've got other books and you've got your keynote speaking and other programs? Where should they be going to do that?

Josh Linkner  27:14  

Probably the easiest place. And thanks again, James, for the conversation, FI always enjoy speaking with you. It's just going to BigLittlebreakthroughs.com you certainly can buy the book. But even if you don't, there's a free assessment tool there. There are all kinds of downloads, there are worksheets, there's a fast start guide. So I really hope that you look at this as a toolkit to help your listener to really, you know, build your creative skills and to take everyday innovation to the next level. Um, you can find all about me and my other work there too. But just yeah, just check out big little breakthroughs. By the way, if anyone likes audiobooks, James, I did a fun thing. I read the book myself. But in between the chapters, I play a little jazz guitar and each chapter. So I added a little bit of creative flourish I determent, if you will, to the audio recording,

James Taylor  27:56  

That is nice. I'm definitely gonna go and get a copy of go and download that it could be my daily walk that could be my soundtrack, your voice, and some nice jazz. That's why I like the sound of that. That's great. Well

Josh Linkner  28:06  

just be clear, though. It's nowhere near as good as your data. And for those again, listening to jazz guitar, so please forgive my sloppiness, though.

James Taylor  28:14  

So, Josh Linkner, thank you so much for coming on today. On the super creativity podcast. I wish you great success with the book and everything else you've got happening for the rest of the year.

Josh Linkner  28:22  

Thanks so much to you as well. Stay safe and

James Taylor  28:24  

stay creative. You can subscribe to the SuperCreativity podcast on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast while you're there. Please leave us a review. I would really, really appreciate it. I'm James Taylor, and you're been listening to the SuperCreativity podcast.