How To Sell A Million Books

James Taylor interviews Charlie Hoehn and they talk about How To Sell A Million Books

In this episode, we cover:

• What he learned working with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi
• How to sell a million books
• The hybrid publishing model

Resources:

• Recommended Book: The Scribe Book Method
• Recommended Tools: YouTube
• Official Website
• The Scribe Book Method

For More of Creative Life Podcast By James Taylor

Artificial Intelligence Generated Transcript

Below is a machine-generated transcript and therefore the transcript may contain errors.

James Taylor
Hi, I'm James Taylor business creativity and innovation keynote speaker. And this is the Creative Life, a show dedicated to you the creative. If you're looking for motivation, inspiration and advice, while at home at work or on your daily commute, then this show is for you. Each episode brings you a successful creative, whether that's an author, musician, entrepreneur, perform a designer, or a thought leader. They'll share with you their journey, their successes, their failures, their creative process, and much much more. You'll find Show Notes for this episode as well as free training on creativity over at Jamestaylor.me. Enjoy this episode.

Hi, it's James Taylor here. Today's episode was first aired as part of International Authors Summit. This inspiring virtual summit reveals the secrets of making marketing and monetizing a best selling book. If you would like to access the full video version as well as in depth sessions with over 40 Best Selling authors that I've got a very special offer for you just go to InternationalAuthorsSummit.com, where you'll be able to register for a free pass for the summit. Yeah, that's right. Over 40 New York Times and Amazon best selling authors, book editors, agents and publishers, sharing their insights, strategies and tactics on how to write and market your first or next best sellers. So just go to InternationalAuthorsSummit.com, but not before you listen to today's episode.

Hey there, it's James Taylor. I'm delighted today to welcome Charlie Hoehn. Charlie Hoehn, is an author, marketing strategist, speaker and head of video for scribe media. He studied under authors including Seth Godin, Ramit Sethi and Tucker Max and help Tim Ferriss in the production and launch of the New York Times bestseller The Four Hour Body, Charlie's own books include play it away, and the popular career guide, recession proof graduate, and when not writing, you'll find him advising authors on how to best market their work. So it's my great pleasure to have chatting with us today. So welcome, Charlie.

Charlie Hoehn
Thank you, James, I appreciate you having me on.

James Taylor
So share with everyone what's going on your world just now what you're working on.

Charlie Hoehn
Right now. I am just doing a bunch of video for our company scribes. So we, I mean, we just shot a video to introduce our publishing managers to new authors that they're working with. So quick 32nd video saying, Hey, I'm Natalie, you know, I'm going to be working with you on your book, that sort of thing.

James Taylor
So this is an interesting one, because we think as authors, writers, it's all like about this stuff. And it's this. So what role does video have today? For for an author?

Charlie Hoehn
Yeah, I mean, it's good. So video is the future like, to me, and all the data pretty much shows it, it's the most sensory medium that you have, it's the most engaging. And to me, it's the most exciting way to tell a story. So not necessarily to push people away from books, but it's just another way to, to grab them and engage them.

James Taylor
So let's talk about your story. You have a very interesting story. So you know, you and I actually had written communication many years ago, when you were working with Tim Ferriss. On the Four Hour Body, what was our communication? I think I was working in Northern California time with technology company. And it was an online education company a little bit like lynda.com. And we reached out with tip to yourself and Tim, about working on something anyway, it was what wasn't right. But I remember kind of seeing you can what you at the time. And Tim talks a lot about about having someone you know, having yourself can an A team of people kind of really helping him. So first of all, how did that relationship start? And and then how did that kind of segue into the work that you're doing today?

Charlie Hoehn
It started really in 2008. I graduated from college, it was the recession, so no one was hiring. And after a few months of failing to get any employer to want to hire me, I just started reaching out to people I admired and offering to, to work with them for for free. So I would propose basic projects or ways to improve their business. So I did this with local entrepreneurs, but I also did it with a handful of authors and one of them was remede Satie. I helped him with the launch of his book, I will teach you to be rich, and that did really well. I was also helping them with video editing. His book hit number one on Amazon, which back then that wasn't really you know that. Now there's like this whole little industry around helping authors hit number one, but we beat out Twilight when Twilight was the thing, you know, so it's a big deal. And we're like stunned. So on wittingly, I sort of developed a reputation as a book marketer. And so all of a sudden As a 22 year old, I had authors coming to me asking for advice. And so Remi was friends with Tim and I asked him for if he'd be willing to introduce me at some point. And I did the same thing with Tim, I sent him some suggestions and ways I thought we could improve his business and how I could handle those things for him and why I was a good fit. We started working together.

James Taylor
Initially on an hourly basis, I flew out to meet him at some point, we hung out for a weekend. And he asked if I'd like to help him with editing, and eventually launching the Four Hour Body if I wanted to be involved. He hired me on his first full time employee, and we ended up working together for a few years and really enjoyed that time. I mean, it was a wonderful experience. And so now your your, you've got kind of couple of roles. Obviously, you're an author in your own right, you've had some basic test what kind of books and we'll talk about those. But then you also have this role of with scribe media, you can head a video, and then you can you can advising, you've been advising I know, many, many authors, some, you know, some very high profile, you might unless they want to see who they are. But I know you're often the been the guy behind the scenes, to some some pretty big book launches as well. So I think you've got ramet, you've got, Tim, you've got Tucker Max, that you know, you work with as well. These are all pretty kind of interesting characters, they have a very strong voice in a sense of voice in what they do. So I'm giving you the foil for them. Because I'm guessing that they're all really strong creatives, in terms of marketing, that will make up great marketing, creative brains as well. And you're coming in with your ideas. So when it comes to this idea of collaboration, how, you know, how does that work when working with author, especially an author that actually maybe has a good understanding about marketing,

Charlie Hoehn
it's really like, I have to believe in what they're doing. Right, I have to feel strongly about what they're doing. And I find myself drawn to people who see the world a bit differently. Like they have a different perspective from, I guess, the masses. And I feel they have an important message. So marketing becomes easy for me. Because I mean, it's it's a natural way of operating. That's just who I am. It's how I'm built. But it becomes even more exciting and enjoyable to, to come up with ideas, because I'm thinking of what would work for me, if they did this, what would get me really excited. I tried to work on books in the past that I was like, add, this isn't for me. And I've learned my lesson that I'm not very good. I'm not a great marketer for people whom I don't really care that much about if I don't feel fully aligned with. So it's, I don't know, it's, it's hard for me to answer that question. Because I don't want to, I certainly don't want to be dismissive of it and say, Hey, this is just how I operate. This is who I am. But at the same time, I know that's a decent part of the equation. Am I making sense? Or am I kind of rambling? No, not

James Taylor
me. I because I come to the music industry originally. And so my role was always being the manager of, you know, platinum selling artists, Grammy Award winning artists, and it's a similar kind of function that you have, you're working with very, very creative people, often very, you know, they actually might not consider themselves as being exhibitionist. They might be on stage in their public persona. But inside they're actually usually quite quiet and make a thought for people. But you have to kind of find a way in terms of working with them, because they have lots of great creative ideas. And then you you're coming in with your creative ideas, and it's like, how that is that the mat a second marriage of minds is not an easy relationship. Yeah,

Charlie Hoehn
yeah. You know, so I get a better understand the question now and my apologies. So yeah, I think there's, there's a few parts to that equation. One is assuming equal status, right? You're both on the same team. You're both it's non combative. I think improv can really help with learning this kind of communication style your yes sanding, you're not saying no but or no, it's it's very supportive and always building you're not grinding things to a halt and you're always respectful toward toward them. And, and it really I did, I, this is again, I think a personality type of mine. I feel much more comfortable being behind the scenes and not pulling this Because that assumes that I'm like a puppet master. That's not it. But I like helping steering the ship. And taking somebody who's already going 100 miles an hour to 200 miles an hour. It's, it's just, it's fun. It's exciting. So I've been told by these guys, like, I wouldn't come up with this answer on my own, they told me that a big part of why they enjoyed working with me is I'm fun, and I'm kind and I'm respectful. But also, you know, I just come with good ideas, and I think a lot of people to do the exact same, but you, you kind of have to have a positive energy one that they they enjoy being around otherwise, it can be tough.

James Taylor
I think it's an undervalued role. And because I have to think about it, you know, the kind of sage on the stage and the guide on the side. And the authors of the kind of sages and with the guides, and you know, helping and, and it was a great, a great line,

Charlie Hoehn
by the way.

James Taylor
And so I think there's that there's that way, you're kind of helping provide leverage for someone or an individual already pretty pretty leveraged themselves, you kind of know what the they're doing. And you're kind of adding to that you wrote a really funny post on medium A while back, it was, it was called How to sell a million books. Which it kind of made me laugh, because you can have, you can have gave the gave the game away for a sentence when you can. So let me ask you, I know nothing about books. How do you sell a million books? jolly?

Charlie Hoehn
Yeah, so it's a great question. Oh, one other thing to your previous question I wanted to add is execution like I would execute. That's just I mean, it kind of goes without saying, but then again, it doesn't like you have to work and get results. Otherwise, you can't work with these people. So how to sell a million books. So the joke that I I often tell to authors who say, How do I sell a million books is I say, you have to buy 995,000 copies of your own book. Because it's really hard. And you have to eat, there are so many variables and factors that you, you have to get right, A and B, you have no control over at the same time. So you can optimize a bunch of these things. But even if you do everything perfectly, if the cultural Zeitgeist is not perfectly aligned, if you're not right at the crest of the wave, before it breaks, you're not going to sell a million copies on. I'll tell you a quick story. So a few years ago, I think it was five or six years ago, a popular blogger reached out to me, or I reached out to him, I complimented him on an art that I really liked. And he responded, and he said, Hey, you know, I'm familiar with your work, I'm considering writing my next book, and I want to go with a traditional publisher this time. And I just, you know, a year before, so I'd helped Tim with the Four Hour Body. And then we'd started work on the Four Hour Chef, and my experience with traditional publishers not to knock them but I found it really frustrating working with them, because I didn't feel like it was such an exceptional service that it warrants Even then, you know, several years ago, it's self publishing has gotten even better now. But even back then I was like, I don't think the cost of how much time it takes going with a traditional publishers worth going with them. And so I kind of wrote back and I just encouraged him, Hey, consider self publishing stick with self publishing. I don't think traditional publishing is the right move. And I was kind of a jerk about it because I was an arrogant, mid 20s. So he wrote back and I clearly rubbed them the wrong way. And he was like, I'm in this for the long haul, blah, blah, blah, I want to go traditional publishing route. He recently published his book, which sold a million copies in six months, called the subtle art of not giving by Mark Manson. And so I was totally wrong with him completely. He made the right decision. But perfect timing for the book. Anyone who tells you anyone who sold a million copies will tell you yes, they got a lot of things right. But they were also extraordinarily lucky not to diminish their efforts, but they were extraordinarily lucky that they came out with the right book at the exact right time. And that's something we've it's really hard to nail the number Have peep of authors who sell a million copies in a year is under 10. There are hundreds of thousands of books that get published each year, you're not going to do it. So that's why I say you have to buy 995,000 copies. And if you're one of those authors who says, How do I sell a million copies get on Oprah, and hit number one New York Times bestseller? My response is always, it's a lot easier to do six months of therapy instead. Because you're trying to fill a hole in your soul with all of those things.

James Taylor
So you have a slightly different model of scrape media. I know, a friend of mine, Aaron, as what were you before on a book project? So so we often think of this idea that you have traditional publishing and then you have this independent or self publishing, and you can have all your all on your own, you maybe have a KDP Amazon account or something. And and you can have it's on you. But you have this different model with scribed. Media described, how does it work? Because this is something that's been like an evolution is still going on being much in the publishing industry.

Charlie Hoehn
Yeah. So we have what's basically called hybrid publishing, where we combine the best of both worlds and get rid of all the awful stuff, because both sides whether you go with a traditional publisher, which you think is going to be this amazing, great thing, but has serious compromises. Or if you go the self publishing route, where you're doing everything yourself, which again, you have more control, you have greater royalties, and blah, blah, blah, but it's still really hard and you can screw everything up and totally damaged your, your efforts. Your brand, if you do anything wrong, we eliminate the pains and compromises of both. So at scribe, it is your book, it is your royalties, it's your rights, you get everything. But we remove the pain, of having to write a proposal having to write it all by yourself. So the reason we're called scribe is because we write books, literally with scribes. Jesus didn't write the Bible, Malcolm X didn't write his own autobiography, Buddha never wrote anything down. They had other people who were scribes writing what they said. So we interview the book out of you, we have professional outliners, who come up with the outline based on the idea that you have, will tell you if the idea is not quite aligned, or if you're trying to pack too much in one book, which is a common mistake. And then we spend about 40 to 50 hours on the phone interviewing the content out of you. So not everyone is right for this, right. Like if you want a ghostwriter, if you want somebody to make up your life or your career, and you want to book as a branding piece, this isn't right for you, you're gonna have to spend over 100 K to get someone to do that. But if you really know what you're talking about, if you're an expert in your field, so like a coach, or a consultant, or a thought leader in your niche, it's a really good fit. So we've done over 800 books over the last four years. The biggest, most famous book that we've done was Tiffany haddish, his book, The Last black unicorn, she was the first she's a she's a stand up comedian. And she was the first female black comedian to ever host SNL she blew up this past summer. And so we've done a huge variety of books. And if you know, from from the self publishing side, we remove all the negative sides there, right, so you get a professional book, or does or, you know, interior layout designer, you get somebody who writes your author bio helps you with the author photo, we get the book on Amazon for you. And then we actually market your book for the first week to set a foundation for your book to sell for many years to come. So we do all the hard heavy lifting that comes with self publishing. And, and make sure that it's professionally done. So you look in in repor are represented at your best.

James Taylor
And I guess that that model works really well if someone is a professional speaker, where that's how they like to communicate, they're very convertible. Yeah, they can think or if someone's maybe a CEO, entrepreneur, you know, senior executive, and, you know, writing the they communicate very well, verbally, but it's you know, it is such a craft and writing. So I guess that that model can work extremely well for those folks. They just want got that they know what they're talking about. They're as they're seen as Thought Leader subject matter expert. And it's like getting that stuff out of their head into the onto the page to a level that people not just want to read it actually really enjoy it and then tell other people about it.

Charlie Hoehn
Absolutely. You know, we've, we've had a lot of executives in leadership roles at companies do books, but it's, it's a no brainer for speakers because they often have done numerous speeches that can fill up a book. And they keep giving the same speech. If they're, if they're speaking dozens of times a year. I mean, at a minimum, they can add a few grand per speech just by offering their books to attendees. And so it's, it's, I mean, it's really a no brainer for them.

James Taylor
And actually, one of the things that you did in terms of reaching out to authors with ideas happened to me right now, I'm not going to say, the company, but there are, let's say, a hybrid publisher, and I gave a speech, I was speaking in Singapore, give this keynote. And within a week, they'd actually this company, email me completely out of the blue, and said, we saw your keynote. And here's the book cover for it did mocked up the book cover, they've essentially mocked almost like a business plan for the book based upon my keynote, and I thought, okay, I mean, if you get on a call with him, you know, is he is not Nestle right for me. But right, I just think I think that was great initiative from that, that company to go and do that. And to be starting to reach out to those speakers in that way. Because when you see the speech that you've just done, you've probably sweating buckets over, and then someone's sending you the book cover of it, you know, with your name on it, and an outline, you know, kind of proposal for it, then that's kind of interesting. That makes just the idea.

Charlie Hoehn
I know. Yeah, one of you know, we're the only ones to do, I strongly feel we're the best at what we do. But one of the one of the similar companies that may be the same one you mentioned, I mean, they they were doing cold outreach with little videos on LinkedIn. And I mean, it was super effective. So I love that that's a great idea.

James Taylor
Now one topic you've written a lot about, which in fact, is all different points in our career is this idea of burnout. So you, you've like you've gone, you've been working with some huge names, and you were doing moving very, very fast. And you the authors, you're working with moving very, very fast as well. So can you tell us about why did you write that book? What was that book all about? What was the inception of it?

Charlie Hoehn
Yeah, so that book is called play it away. A worker colics cure for anxiety, I should have called it an entrepreneur's cure for burnout. But it you know, subtitles whatever. So played away came about because I really, you know, for years, Tim and I were working really well together. And then there was this event that as my responsibilities grew, he put me in charge of this big event. I think it was 2425 at the time. And the event was a book marketing cook publishing event that attendees paid $10,000 to attend in Napa Valley for four days. And 130 people were coming with, you know, really big speakers and everything and I was in charge of coordinating everything, in my experience in event planning was effectively like throwing keggers in college. And, you know, I throw in some VIP parties with Tim and I've done a pretty good job like but you know, just by the skin of my teeth, that sort of thing. It just so I got really nervous going into this and I secretly ordered modafinil, which is a brain pill used by the military to keep military fighter pilots awake and is now prescribed to narcoleptics to keep them from spontaneously falling asleep. And so I took this pill four days in a row and I slept six hours over the course of 96 hours, which is a one to 18 ratio. Human beings are designed to have a one to two ratio, basically eight hours for every 16 year awake. So I was a little skewed there. And it may be a one to 16 ratio. I can't do the math but yeah, one is 16 I believe but in any case, I was really kind of messed up after that and kept ignoring the symptoms because I was so like in I was just addicted to it. Productivity machine, you know, in San Francisco, that's the clincher out there. Like, it was not weird to anybody that I was doing that, in fact, multiple people were like, where do I get those pills? And in fact, like, there are CEOs, there are people in Silicon Valley coders for sure, that are taking this it's a it's a brain steroids basically, like you want to complain about baseball players. This is what you know, a lot of people use to enhance their performance. And why wouldn't you, you know, you're able to execute on levels that are previously unimaginable. But the problem was, I just got really sort of, I, my identity shifted from being like, I'm doing what I love, and I'm helping these people doing great work to being productive, being successful, being very serious. And it completely wiped me out. And I then I went through some emotional traumas that I didn't understand were emotional traumas. Like, you know, a family member died, a close friend attempted suicide, in the same weekend. And, you know, the deadline for the book that we were working on, got pushed back six months, and I was like, I'm never gonna make it. So I quit my job with him. And that was an emotionally traumatic thing, not because he made it, but because if you leave anything, if you rip a part of your identity out, and are worried that you've burned bridges and stuff, like it's just, it is a an emotional trauma, which I just didn't understand at the time. So I just, you know, I kept repeating this cycle of working myself from four in the morning, sleeping for a few hours, getting up doing it all over again, drinking five cups of coffee a day. You know, it was just the cycle of overwork during the week and numbing out with alcohol on the weekend and drugs. And a lot of people are in this cycle. And it took me a few years to really undo it. And I tried to everything, everything that, you know, a medical professional would tell you, this is going to alleviate anxiety, and nothing worked. And I remember telling my girlfriend at the time she started, she started kind of grilling me one night, she's like what happened to you, I, you're not the guy that I met. And I remember telling her I'd like I feel dead inside all the time. And I don't know how to fix that. And I remember that conversation because she started crying. And I felt jealous that she could cry, because I just couldn't like I just felt so numb. So to bring us to the lightness is I discovered a book just kind of serendipitously called play by Stuart Brown, Dr. Stuart Brown. And the book is about really the evolutionary benefits of play. Why? Why do we play when it seems like this frivolous wasteful activity? Why do humans play so much? And the answer is, it is essential to our survival, it is essential to our mental well, being a playful person equals a person who doesn't have mental health issues. The opposite of depression, I'm sorry, the opposite of play is not work. It's depression. So that that's what was one of the big things is I just realized, if I start maybe I realized how I just deprived myself of play for years and being playful. And even though that's why I am at my core and who you are, and the whoever,

James Taylor
because it's kind of beaten out of his school and college, you're told, okay, it's adult time now, you know, and yeah, but I find if I think because you mentioned this idea of play, I interviewed someone while at Bonita Cove and who was like the grandfather of play studies, and, and and this. And he just said, you know, it's kind of beaten out of us now. This this idea, or this idea of playing, but actually, there's a difference between also play and playfulness. And he said, you look at the some of the most creative people in the world. They're actually very playful. They're actually they're very playful with ideas, whether they're scientists or artists or whatever.

Charlie Hoehn
Yes, exactly. I mean, the guy who quite literally invented the internet, I forget his name. There's a book about him. The book is called a mind at play. The most recent book I did was an art project. With 75 of the world's biggest influencers, creators, inventors, people who shaped our culture in the book is called play for a living. And it's just quotes about how they felt about how to approach work and their careers. So whether it's people like Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, Plato, JK Rowling, you know it Steve Jobs, all of these people viewed life and work in the same lens, which was, this is a game that I get to mold and create and collaborate with others on and we get to produce the fruits of our play and share it with the world, in the people who I mean it. Like there's really clear research on this now that shows like the highest motivators for great performance in order our play, then purpose. And then, like payment. So it looks Hello, assignment speech. I think it's amazing. But I think it's also wrong. Because purpose comes second, you have to start with intrinsic motivation. What is your internal paycheck? What is the fun that you get that you would do this? Even if you weren't getting paid? Even if there wasn't a mission? You're doing it just because it's you? Yeah. So I think you start with play, and not start with why

James Taylor
I love that I love I mean, this is for anyone, that's what you know, many of the people who are the speakers or CEOs, they're pretty a type person that personalities. They're pretty driven already are achievers, they like jazz, they are achievers. And so and you kind of lose that sense of this is a play I love watching. I love what I think was Austin kleon was talking with talks about it with this idea where you should watch a three year old or four year old of me was HUGH MACLEOD actually, and you just watch them, they get completely immersed in what in like painting and drawing. And then what psychologists call flow state, you know, there, and they don't even think and they get they lose all track of time as well. And, and there's that same sensation that we have when we're doing the work whether that's the writing, you know, or whether it's marketing, creating marketing campaigns, we lose all kind of track of time because we're playing we're working. We're playing. Yeah,

Charlie Hoehn
exactly. I mean it. You're exactly right. I mean, this is the reason why I you know, I've never personally even though I've written a few books, and worked with a lot of authors I've never personally identified with being an author, those were just things I had to get out of my head I had to otherwise it would go crazy. And I felt like the the messages weren't in existence anywhere else, so I had to get them out. But I really love video, because it puts me into flow, it is my play, there's no other form of work, I found that I enjoy more than that. So I think we all need to have that whether it's our work or our hobby, if you don't have that. It really makes life robotic and mechanical, and serious and dry and just kind of blah, makes it very gray. Yeah, but if you have play it in your regular routine, you're a much more vibrant person. And

James Taylor
I think especially if you can also add that play element that is physical as well, we sit down so much of the time, you know, if there's things that you can find that which is going to be going to help and is going to be active as well. That's great. So if we start to finish up here, a couple of kind of quick fire questions for you. I would love to know, are there any tools that you find really useful? And actually, I'm gonna ask you specifically as you as a videographer, because you are, you know, you're pushing in terms of how video is a major, major new tool for us. But are there any online tools, mobile tools, apps do you find very useful for yourself as a videographer, and as someone who has to market books,

Charlie Hoehn
the most, I would say is YouTube, like it you can go through literally you can get a film school education in less than a day watching people like Parker walbeck, who does a full time filmmaker. Every scene a paint, every scene of painting, I think, or every frame of painting. There's so much good stuff. And all you really have to worry about James is his story. That's all that

James Taylor
matters, which is which link links to the author part as well. So it's the same as a storytelling just using a different medium to tell the story.

Charlie Hoehn
Exactly. beginning middle and I mean it just it just watch, watch things that you love and, you know, maybe jot down notes of why you love it. Like every all the tools we have now are amazing. A new iPhone is indistinguishable from a $50,000 red camera. indistinguishable. Like I'm not saying like almost it's you can't tell. So the tools are relevant. Right? Like anybody can publish a book in a Word document, right? It's, the question is do you have something worth saying? Do you have something worth reading And talking about, and it's the same thing with video, are you telling a story that's worth watching? And we're sharing. And if you if you learn those basic principles you can make whatever you want. I mean, it's, it's, it's just art. It's it's storytelling. So I know the temptation is to come up with a juicy, slick, polished answer. But really, it's like, there's so much great stuff out there. It's so easy to attain and learn from

James Taylor
and what about a book, if there's one book, someone's watching this just now, they're kind of intrigued by this idea of maybe going down the self publishing or the independently published route, but then maybe a little worried about the craft of writing or they're worried about the marketing side of it, or the putting the distribution side? Is there a book that you would recommend to them to check out?

Charlie Hoehn
Yeah, I would honestly recommend ours. The scribe book method, I believe, is what it's called, we had to rename it because we just rebranded the company. I know, I know, you can get it for free at the, at the site. But yeah, I mean, that lays out our exact process, which I believe is the easiest, simplest process you can use. I mean, Bernie Brown, right. Like, she's a wonderful author, wonderful speaker, she uses a process that's very similar to ours, where, you know, she communicates her book to a group of people to gauge their feedback, rather than holding up in a cave in isolation and like, you make it more of a simple convert other than the romanticized version of, you know, reenacting the shining, or holding up in a cabin and doing that. So that's it. That's the book I'd recommend.

James Taylor
I read the previous version, but it was called some something else if that book is great book in terms of talking through that, that methodology. I remember interviewing Amanda Palmer, the songwriter and musician at the time. And we wrote she could have told me this idea she was on my like, second screen writing is what she calls it, like she'll be writing. And then she was kind of reaching out to a community on social media saying, What's a better word for this thing here? You know, she's, she's constantly having a conversation with her readers, her end audience about this. And that makes them super intrigued about the book because they feel part of that the journey of that or that journey of creation. What about an album is there an album that you would recommend people people check out that you really love?

Charlie Hoehn
Oh, music? Oh, great question. I love this. Let me I've been really enjoying Leon bridges recently. Check out Leon bridges. Look at his most popular stuff on on YouTube. His musics great. And then Tyco. TY ch O is great to write to and do work to it's just really relaxing. And it's actually great dinner party music if you have a dinner party. Great. We'll put those links here as well.

James Taylor
And a final question for each I want you to imagine you woke up tomorrow morning, and you have to start from scratch. So you've got all the skills or the knowledge you've acquired over the years, but no one knows who you are. You know, no one you have to restart. What would you do? How would you restart things?

Charlie Hoehn
I know no one.

James Taylor
Is that what you said, you know, no one no one knows you, you know, no one.

Charlie Hoehn
So I'm basically on Mars. But I'm surrounded by Martian

James Taylor
Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna stick you in a good city. I'll let you choose the city you want over this Austin or San Francisco somewhere somewhere that you would like. But you know, no one, no one knows you. How you gonna restart things? Oh, my gosh.

Charlie Hoehn
So in this completely likely scenario? Let's see. Honestly, I think I would probably where I would start. I would, I would have to start just meeting people around. Because here's why. Like the money and stuff like you can, you can always make that you can figure out ways of doing there's a million ways to make money. But if you don't have friends around you, you're screwed. Like you will be screwed eventually, if you are operating in isolation. So the question assumes I'm not knowing anybody. So my first order of business is to befriend somebody. So, so if you know shit hits the fan, I've got a couch to sleep on and all this like we are social animals first. Money comes second. So I would that would be my answer. And I'd figure out the money. Second.

James Taylor
Wonderful. Charlie, thank you so much for coming. It's great. finally getting a chance to speak in person as an email. Hopefully, we'll get a chance to catch up maybe in Austin and I know you're in one of the best music cities in the world as well over there. So thanks so much. Thanks so much for coming on.

Charlie Hoehn
Thank you, James. curious what would be your album that you would recommend? Ah,

James Taylor
see, I'm a jazz drummer originally so I probably have to go if it was an if it was an album. Let's have a think that's a hard one cuz you asked a musician what album they would choose. It's like asking a parent which of their children would they is I would say if I was left on on a desert island with one album, it would probably be my namesake James Taylor, the other James Taylor some friends with some of your band members. And I know that I have seen James live in the Bay Area recently as well. And yeah, music always a long memory. So probably the other James Taylor. Nothing earth shattering man.

Charlie Hoehn
You know how like all the research shows you're more likely to like somebody if their name is the same or similar to yours. Yes, you you have a bias toward those people. I wonder if you are biased toward James Taylor for that reason, very possibly, please great, we're gonna

James Taylor
I'm not taking anything away from him. I'm gonna have I'm gonna have to find that that Charlie home that music artist out there that Charlie Hearn

Charlie Hoehn
singer songwriter, my original name, it was actually Led Zeppelin

James Taylor
by default, anyway, Charlie, thanks so much for coming on. It's just a pleasure. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you do with with with scribe, really cool company, with all the people you've got there. And thanks so much for sharing your knowledge today.

Charlie Hoehn
My pleasure. Thank you again, James.

James Taylor
If you're interested in living a more creative life, then I'd love to invite you to join me as I share some of the most successful strategies and techniques that high performing creatives use. I put them all together in a free downloadable ebook that you can get by going to jamestaylor.me. That's jamestaylor.me. To get your free downloadable ebook on creativity.

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