How To Use Your Book As A Platform
James Taylor interviews Lisa Bodell and they talk about how to use your book as a platform
In this episode, we cover:
- Finding the key themes for your book
- The role of the co-author
- Your book as a platform
Resources:
For More of Creative Life Podcast By James Taylor
Artificial Intelligence Generated Transcript
Below is a machine-generated transcript and therefore the transcript may contain errors.
James Taylor
Hi, I'm James Taylor business creativity and innovation keynote speaker. And this is the Creative Life, a show dedicated to you the creative. If you're looking for motivation, inspiration and advice, while at home at work or on your daily commute, then this show is for you. Each episode brings you a successful creative, whether that's an author, musician, entrepreneur, perform a designer, or a thought leader. They'll share with you their journey, their successes, their failures, their creative process, and much much more. You'll find Show Notes for this episode as well as free training on creativity over at Jamestaylor.me. Enjoy this episode.
Hi, it's James Taylor here. Today's episode was first aired as part of International Authors Summit. This inspiring virtual summit reveals the secrets of making marketing and monetizing a best selling book. If you would like to access the full video version as well as in depth sessions with over 40 Best Selling authors that I've got a very special offer for you just go to InternationalAuthorsSummit.com, where you'll be able to register for a free pass for the summit. Yeah, that's right. Over 40 New York Times and Amazon best selling authors, book editors, agents and publishers, sharing their insights, strategies and tactics on how to write and market your first or next best sellers. So just go to InternationalAuthorsSummit.com, but not before you listen to today's episode.
Hey, there is James Taylor and I'm delighted today to welcome Lisa Bodell. Lisa is an author, speaker and the founder and CEO of future thing a company which enables organizations to kill complexity, create space for innovation, and get to the work that matters. As a globally recognized innovation leader and futurist. She is the author of why simple wins, escape the complexity trap and get to work that matters and also kill the company and the status quo start and innovation at revolution, which is named one of the best business books of 2012 By Busan cope. Lisa has also contributed her expertise to a wide variety of media, including Fast Company wire, The New York Times, Inc, Forbes, Harvard Business Review, Fox News, and CNN. It's my great pleasure to have Lisa with us today. So welcome, Lisa.
Lisa Bodell
Hey, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to speak with you today.
James Taylor
So share with everyone what's going on in your world just now.
Lisa Bodell
Well, you know, the big thing from a writing perspective is I'm starting my third book. So this is a very exciting time. And it's one of those things, you know, for the people that are listening here, every time I finish a book, I say, That's it, I'm not writing another one. As you know, you know, if you've written one before, but you know, you you kind of get into that addictive trap of can you come up with an idea and you want to share it, you want to learn more about it. And it's as much about the journey of it as it is about you feeling that finished product when you're done. So I've just started that and I'm in the book proposal stage, but I'm pretty excited about it. I'm building on my last book, and I'm hoping to get some research going here in the next month. So
James Taylor
what feels easier going into a third book what feels easier on a third book and what feels a little bit more urgent?
Lisa Bodell
Well, you know, a couple things first, it's one of those if I knew then what I know now, you know, you know, the routine, you know, the approach, you know, I've got an agent, I have a writer that supports me, actually, because I also run a business and I am on the speaking circuit. I know how to organize my research. I know, I know how to organize my thinking, to get a book done in the way that I really want it. So that that's one of the things is I don't worry as much about will it be good enough? How will it work? Will I be able to meet my my page count my word count, I know all that stuff. So that feels much easier. The process part? The piece that still always, I think don'ts any writer is going to have a good enough idea. You know, is this something that's actually going to work out? Is the research going to tell me what I hope it's going to tell me and now the reality is, maybe it will maybe it won't, but we think we have a good, pretty good hypothesis about what we want to talk about. And we're building on my last book, about simplicity. And this time really delving into it from the individual perspective versus just business perspective. I'm excited to learn about it because I'm still on that simplification journey myself
James Taylor
so that that process of you know searching for that that core idea that you would have and then finding supporting evidence and looking for doing your research. I was talking to I was reading something that they Ryan Holiday the writer was talking about how he goes into this he does always research and then he goes into he causes drawdown period we basically doesn't do anything just before
Well, you
we start ever nation but I've been
James Taylor
so he basically goes to this period of like, Okay, I need to stop reading stop inputting your stuff now, and I actually need to just like that that time for me to think is do you work in a similar way? Oh, you always just along the way, you're just just trying to kind of write things down and and hopefully, at the end of that process of researching something will have emerged, I guess
Lisa Bodell
it well, I love that. Kind of the draw down I call hibernation or fetal position, depending on how, at the moment, right, there's that like trough of despair when you think you have nothing and then you emerge from it. And I cast a really wide net I gather every From the podcast to videos to TED talks to know that I sit next to on an airplane, I gather a ton of research and I, Google doc and I tab it, let you know who I should interview where, you know, different types of categories of research, I can go back to Atlanta, I really love to have it organized. But it is what you're getting at those, I think is wanting to know when when to say when, basically. So one of the things I like, is that a really good body of research, probably like a couple hundred pages, stuff. And then I do spend a couple weeks just calling just reading, just organizing, what are the key themes, and then I do more research on themes. And what I stopped. And the reason I stopped is because then I think I need to start getting subject matter expertise and Devil's advocates. And so one of the things I really like to do is talk start my interview list of people that are experts in that topic, and people that are skeptics on that topic. And that really helps me litmus test my ideas. And the cool thing I'll tell you that I really like to do is hot to people that scare you, which are the people that you're either afraid to talk to you never think will talk to you or are going to tell you things you probably don't want to hear an avant garde research projects. I'm giving you more than you asked for. But what was really interesting was, for example, people were telling me around complexity, one of the things is their bosses, right? No one thinks they're the problem. They think everyone else's problem. And we said, well, we better learn how to deal with bosses, Who should we talk to, and a lot of people we found feel like it's like a marriage either could be a good marriage that needs help or bad marriage needs help. But we're talking to marriage counselors that can help us understand how to simplify relationships. And we're talking to hostage negotiators, also help us understand right? How to deal with difficult bosses because you just have to learn how to work within parameters to get the goal you want. And we're trying to take a really different approach to it with this book. So anyway, that that's kind of how we go about it. We cast a wide net and then we find out Some Unusual Suspects to add that little, little spin no one else has. So
James Taylor
you also mentioned I'm working with a with a co writer as well. We have interviewed Lou ronica as part of this who Lewis Yes, Sir Ken Robinson's co writer on lm lm and great, great books. And he was talking about that relationship to the CO writer has, especially with someone who's who's a real thought leader, like yourself, you know, you're out there speaking, you're you can be visible and visible in that way. What What is the for you? What is the CO writer add to the process? And do they take on that devil's advocate role, or the different fill a slightly different role from that?
Lisa Bodell
Well, devil's advocate is definitely one of the roles because I think what you can do is you can come fall in love with your idea, become really enamored with it, because you just want to have a great idea and, you know, push forward, and sometimes it's a really crappy idea. So, one of the things I really like when I'm talking with a co writer is you know, it's kind of like a doctor, you have to have the same bedside manner to be able to work together and kind of know what each other's thinking. But you also have to have a level of trust that they can poke holes in your idea. And they'll know that you're respected. So devil's advocate is definitely one. Another thing is just to be able to shape ideas, I really like to know, you know, that research. And then I like to just spew I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to say yet. But I just I have to get it out. And I have to spew, and the job of the writer to me is just like write down key phrases here and try and crystallize it. So because sometimes you're so close to it, it's hard to pull back. And that's what I need from a writer.
James Taylor
And I wonder if that's because you're also known very much as a speaker. So one of the ways that you like obviously communicating as a strength for you communicating in that way versus some some other authors that that's not there, they would prefer much more solitary kind of sitting there with the page where you, you you can have, what's that you can speak you can have speak to think through your ideas,
Lisa Bodell
I have to win. The other thing too is that I get very frustrated because I want to get it right right now. Because like with speakers, I want to all of a sudden get to my, like key points in my sound bites. And that's, you know, I think in terms of what I call stages, not pages. And the reason I say that to people that are aspiring authors is you have to know what you want out of your book. I mean, if you're an academic, and you like lots of big words and lots of flowery language, and that's one way to write, and that's one type of writing that is not me, I like to get to the point I like to talk in plain language and plain speak. That's why I like to be a simplicity expert. And I like to have sound bites because I think that's how people think now, you know, people don't even read anymore. They watch. They don't, they don't read full sentences, they want sound bites, they want pithy phrases. So I think in terms of that, so I can then translate that more quickly to my speeches on stage. Because the goal for me is memorable stuff.
James Taylor
And do you think is that related to because you're early in your career you worked in advertising?
Lisa Bodell
related? Yeah. Related mean now that you say that? I would say of course, yes. obvious. But I don't know if that's
James Taylor
okay. I think it like Ogilvy like great. David Ogilvy, which he had this is seven things about how to write. And one of them was not using flowery language. And again, getting to the point being quite lean, in terms of how you communicated your ideas. One of my,
Lisa Bodell
like, I met when I was doing one of my first Talks at Google. And because Google, like Ted, when you do the talk, sometimes they give you speech coaches, and he met me. And happily, he said, I'm glad I'm your speech coach, who obviously don't need one because you speak a lot. But we became friends and his company, elevator speech. He talks about using weakened language. And what I like about weakened languages, how do you talk to your friends, if you're having a barbecue or sitting on a patio or having sitting at a pub and you don't talk in this big flowery language, you talk to them like everyday people, and that's how I like to write my books because I think my goal is to make it approachable for people and I want to make them feel like they can do it and be empowered and if the language doesn't relate to them, or it makes them Some feel dumb. And then I've done the opposite of what I want to accomplish. And when you started moving into the world of writing, who were those mentors or role models for you, who were the authors that you either knew personally and you able to get mentorship from, or maybe you had, you can look at them from afar and said, that's the type of writer I want to be. You know, it's funny, because I'm a creative writer, I, when I was younger, I would want a lot of creative writing awards for fiction. So I really liked people that could help spark an imagination. That's number one. But the things that I really liked even more were people that were convincing on their point of view. And that's why I like op ed writers, because they have to convey people a very specific point of view on sometimes very controversial or complex topics in a very short amount of time. And me, those are the kind of political writers I often engage those kinds of people can make make sense of a topic and a very quick concise way. And those are the types of writers
James Taylor
so as you essentially kind of go on your Your writing career was there a key aha moment that you had maybe a time when you said, Okay, this is the direction I want to go with my writing, or these are the kind of books I want to write on these subjects I want to cover?
Lisa Bodell
Well, two things because I have, you know, some people are full time authors. And that's, that's one route to go. But I'm an entrepreneur, I have a business. And so my book is a platform, not not necessarily a legacy. For me. I don't know how else to say that. But my point being is it's a vehicle for me to grow my business and my, my, my point of view, so my whole thing is that we teach people about change and innovation. And so I wanted to have my book be able to help convey that. And I guess the aha moments for me were when we were trying to teach people innovation. And we just couldn't do it. We were getting a lot of pushback, and I wanted to know why. And so I said, Well, I'm going to figure it out and then write a book about it. So a lot of my books are about overcoming a process or a problem or a challenge to help me work through it with my business. So that's where the aha moments come from me is in real life. What's holding me back? Same thing with toxicity, right? I'm going to do this research and kind of figure it out for myself and then write a book about it to help others.
James Taylor
So what was it on that piece? You said, you know, companies, some companies were hesitant about bringing companies in other consultants in to help with that innovation process. Well, what were the what were the challenges? What did you discover in that journey?
Lisa Bodell
Well, you know, I talked about this a lot on stage, which is this is where killed the company came in, which is I've got this training business, it had been around for a decade, innovation was really hot on all these companies have resources and money and strategic initiatives to get their teams to innovate, and they would hire us and we would get there. And then the very people that brought us in, were the ones that were telling us to just not, you know, not do that much innovation when we got there. So we were really frustrated going, you know, do they really want to do it or not want to do it? Is this just window dressing? And what we started to do is we asked people, you know, why is this so hard for you to do you asked us To come here, and people said that they want to do it, but they didn't feel empowered to do it number one, and they didn't have time because they spent most of their day in meetings and emails. So that's where the idea for killing the company came in. And that's the idea for where getting rid of complexity came in. If we're spending all our time in meetings and emails, how are we going to be innovative? So then that that was that natural lead on to the second book, which is pretty much about simplification like, Okay, what if one of your biggest challenges is, I just don't have the time to do that deep work? I suppose that you know, the covey one, we said that the important but not urgent work, this is required, then that kind of lead into that that simplification piece. That's exactly right. And so that we came out of kill the company, which is why can't people innovate. And the thing was, they don't have the space to think about it. They own the space of the time. It's not that they don't want to they can get to it. And that's what led to why simple wins. And then it's funny because when I wrote my first book, you have to kind of have to listen to how people react to your books to really understand what the next one Bite, that would be a piece of advice I would give people. And I realized that for kill the company, people were saying to me, I don't have the time I don't have the space. And that led to why simple wins. And now what's interesting about why simple wins when I get off the stage, people literally want to hug me like a therapist. And it's a completely different feeling of, you know, they like to kill the company, they think it's really provocative, but why simple wins, then touch them at the company level, personal level. And that's what led me to the third book, which is, the feedback I keep getting is people just want to tell me their stories about you wouldn't believe what my boss did. Or if I miss the soccer game for my kid, or even they have these personal things that they this catharsis they want me to help them with. And that's what I want to tackle now. And this third one is how can I help the people that find me after my speeches get even further in that journey? So listen to how people react to your book, either those comments on Amazon or the feedback you get from people on Twitter, or when they find you after a speech because they're probably telling what you should do people an export
James Taylor
that's really fast that the first thing that I mean that that whole topic of innovation, I mean, I speak on create creativity, not so much innovation. And that whole topic of innovation always feels like it's a corporate, you know, complex organizational type of thing. But you but you're you and B and B, your journey in terms of what the people they kind of want to get back to the the individual in some senses in terms of like, Okay, what can I do? What is my role in that? How can I contribute to that?
Lisa Bodell
Well, one thing I would say too, about writing is fight for what you believe in with your publisher. Because if I hadn't my book never would have been called kill the company because it was too controversial. And I said, screw that, because that's the whole point. That's what sells if you if you hug the middle as they say, you're never going to sell anything. So controversy helps provocation health. The other thing is I always said I want to be in two aisles in the proverbial bookstore. I want to be in the business aisle and the self help file. And the reason for the business hours people feel good that they're going to further their career but the self help aisle because that's what people really care. About people want to improve themselves, and they like to talk about themselves and they like to diagnose themselves. So, you know, this next book is really going to focus on the individual because, yeah, they want to further their career. Yes, they want to help their company, but you know, what they really want to help themselves. So I really got to figure out that work life balance piece and that complexity piece for the individual next
James Taylor
time, that's a really hard piece to do, because I agree with that, that Venn diagram of if I think, in my topic of creativity, you know, the artists way, one end with Julia Cameron, great book be self help, but then creativity, Inc, by Ed catmull. You know, these are both kind of come at it from different perspectives. But but they have, there's something there and there is something there in the middle. But that's a hard book to write, I think,
Lisa Bodell
I think it's, that's the problem, which is, you know, it's always do I just use it as a chapter at the end of the book, you know, and just call it you know, something for you. The way I've gotten around it, it frankly, is the aha moment for me has been putting in a whole chapter about tools because I really want to You know, do I want to be someone who's known as just a thought leader? That's great. But the other thing I really want to be known for is helping people do it themselves. And that's the practical what I call Midwestern side of me. I just want to, you know, I want to give them things that they can do. And that's why my last book in the things people come up to me and say is, I really liked your book, and I really read your tool of do kill a stupid rule with a team time. Do within and Jason beyond with my team all the time, questions my team all the time. But then I know not only do they read it, but they're using it. So that's one of my signature pieces, as we always put in tools at the back so people can take it and get it done.
James Taylor
And I guess that then leads quite nicely on to the consulting part and the speaking part of your business as well, where when you're speaking people that the client is looking for deliverables, what are they going to be able to do when they get back into the office on Monday morning? What's still going to be there in? What is that phrase that they're going to or internally with an organization you're going to be talking about, oh, let's do x y, Zed that, you know, that's how have we done this That that translation into into doing that is is great, because Because otherwise, you're in the world of the academic of just purely being it. It's just being an intellectual exercise.
Lisa Bodell
Well, I also think there's an advantage to it because people say, Well, how do you know? What's your book that you know what you're saying is true. And some people do it via research. I'm not a big quantitative research, no researcher, I'm no scientist. So mine is through actual experience and anecdotes, and I think people, they like data, they also like stories. So you know, when you're writing a book, it's you have to have a thesis, you have to have something provocative, and you have to prove it. And so of course, I have to have data, but I really have the stories and I do that through my business. So and we run kill the company workshops and people take it, they love it, you know, because they could we get in there and we show them how they can literally be their competitor and find their weaknesses quickly. And then with killing complexity, we do the same thing. And what's great about it is that I can tell them across lots of different big companies that they're familiar with how They did you know how they killed rules and or how they killed their company and what happened. And people really relate to that because they, they think you, you get their world right you understand the day to day that they live in and understand that it is doable. That's great.
James Taylor
I love that it's a real virtuous circle then about all these things can feeding into each other and building upon each other. What was your writing ritual look like? You know, how are you very much you work in blocks of time and you're known as someone who is an extremely productive in your articles and and also your books as well? How do you get how do you get stuff done?
Lisa Bodell
I'm very disciplined. I definitely have my to do list that I like to do. I'm one of those people. That's the oxymoron. I feel like it's not about what's on your to do list, but you also have to have one to organize yourself. I mean, I get up early, so I'm an early morning person and I like to get all my writing done when it's quiet. I'm alone and I have a massive cup of coffee and that's that's a ritual. The other thing that I might My writing ritual is once I have all my research organized until that's done, I can't start writing. I make a plan to tackle a chapter each week. That's how I do it. So to me, it's about the process of, we've got the outline, let's do a chapter each week. And then once we have it written, we go back and we start the editing process. But it's early morning cup of coffee has to be definitely
James Taylor
silent. And then what about tools? Are there any tools that you use apps? You know, what do you use in terms of for writing that are very effective for you?
Lisa Bodell
Well, it you know, not many, I'll be honest, I'm going to be the person that when you interview is going to be really old school. So I think my biggest secret weapon is I have very, is very provocative questions. And I have very avant garde search terms. Because I think that when you go online, you know, Google's not a search engine, that's an answer engine, and basically, you can get whatever data you want. Are you asking good questions, and you Using the right search terms, so, you know, being very creative and the adjectives you use the search terms, being at the negative side, not just positive side, those types of things I go in, in terms of in terms of my research, I don't use a lot of apps. The other thing that I do, and this isn't a ritual, but this is just a good practice is I spent a lot of time walking, whether it's walking my dogs walking at night, walking home, and the reason for that is, you know, there's obviously a lot of good science around it, but it's just it's, it's thinking time and processing time. And that's usually where I have a lot of Tiffany's as well, I'm alone, and I'm just walking, I'll leave and drive and I'll go to you know, forest preserves and I'll just walk for a full hour and let my mind wander. And that's where I get a lot of my
James Taylor
thoughts and you're absolutely right man is tons of signs to back support that I mean, even the color you mentioned being at a national park or the color green, the University of Berlin just had a big research piece all about all about that in that color green having that color green, Randy doing Some low level, physical activity walking is great for for that that thought process.
Lisa Bodell
I like getting back to basics because I feel like I do feel like writers feel a lot of pressure, like they're never doing it right. You know, like, I have search right in and find the right research and talk to the right people I didn't, I don't know all the apps to use. And to me again as an expert is, don't say just like Cut the crap, don't feel the pressure, whatever works for you do a couple things. Well, rather than trying to do everything
James Taylor
about a book, is there one book that you would recommend for someone who is on this journey just now maybe they're just in the process of writing that first book. There's been a book on the writing process on ideas, generating ideas more generally.
Lisa Bodell
So here's a dumb, a dumb thing, but might be smart thing. One of the things that we teach in terms of understanding how to get an idea how to how to create an innovation, it's the same thing as creating a book. And we ask people, how do they actually create the what's their process for getting things done, and we don't we tell them not to write it down, but to draw it And what's interesting about that is people you know, they kind of think about, Okay, I'm gonna read a book, How am I going to do it, I'm gonna, rather than writing down the steps of how you want to write a book draw how you envision the process of a book going. And it might start with somebody saying, you know, there's a light bulb over here over your head, and then it it's an arrow to a library or a search engine, and then it's to a Google Doc, where they organize it, but what that's trying to do is get the process down on paper for them to see how do they think and how do they organize? And then how do they want to start engaging people in that process or change it it's a good visualization technique that'll help them get organized and
James Taylor
maybe create a plan to go full forward that's great I mean, we've had one or the guests was just talking about he actually tube I guess from what had the mind map the the structure of their book right at the start and he said, you know, before when they used to do it, that being linear fashion, it was they couldn't really see the connections and that desperate thing over there was actually Oh, well, that's actually connected to that other thing that then he I just never saw it before because it but in a linear fashion. You don't see those connections.
Lisa Bodell
It's The same type of thing because a lot of people think it's why we get so bored in meetings because people use PowerPoint versus when they get up at a board and they start drawing it, people start to get engaged because they can suddenly see what's in your head. Yeah. And I think that's what happens with with when people are trying to tackle something big like a book like God, I got to write a book, How am I going to do it? Oh, my God. Okay, so don't write it down, draw it out. And especially for people that are more linear thinkers, that's going to be very, it's like mind mapping, right? It's this aha moment where they might not realize that's how they think or how they organize their thoughts. And it suddenly starts helping them break it down into parts. And that's the key thing and solving a problem. When you break it down into parts or a big project. It's easier to tackle.
James Taylor
So final question for you. I want you to imagine, tomorrow morning, you wake up and you have to start from scratch. your previous books don't exist. No one knows you, you know, no one. You have to restart. What would you do? How would you restart things?
Lisa Bodell
Well, that's interesting. So once I got up out of the fetal position, walk and call myself Boom, oh, my big thing is I have a big, legal sized piece of paper and I have a pen and I just start writing down, like, what are the big thoughts in my head? Like, write down every big thought. So if I could write a book, and I would want to be known for something, what if what I want to be known for? What's my area of expertise? What has nobody written before? What's, what's a topic that somebody seems to own, but I disagree with their point of view? And maybe I could look at it differently. So if I was starting again, you have to figure out what do I want to write and that's those are the types of like questions I would start. So if you figure out what's my topic, search, you're doing it my thought I'd want to figure
James Taylor
out what's my point? I think as a start starting with those kind of questions, we've had Warren Berger on this who wrote a great book about questioning and spending those first 10 minutes of any kind of bring some questioning the question and that's it opens up a completely different way of way of thinking. So, Lisa, if people want to reach out to you to learn more about about the book so they can get get a copy of the of the book and also learn about the His latest book movie get on early pre launch for the for the book all they want to learn about the business that you're involved in all your speaking where's the best place to go and do that,
Lisa Bodell
ah, I would go to future thing calm, which is the name of my company. So future things calm, you can go on Amazon, obviously and go and take a look for the books there. And actually if you sign up for our newsletter on future things calm, you're going to get a preview of some of the survey questions and perhaps be interviewed for the next book because that's the that's the next thing is getting those anecdotes from people that are fans or have something to say and we're going to be doing that in the next few
James Taylor
months. Wonderful. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for coming on today. Sharing about your journey, your writing journey, I wish you all the best with this, this third book you're going to be coming out with
Lisa Bodell
Thank you, I'll need all the luck I can get so thanks very much.
James Taylor
If you're interested in living a more creative life, then I'd love to invite you to join me as I share some of the most successful strategies and techniques that high performing creatives use. I put them all together in a free downloadable ebook that you can get by going to jamestaylor.me. That's jamestaylor.me. To get your free downloadable ebook on creativity.
To get your free downloadable ebook on creativity. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it on iTunes or Stitcher and write a brief review. That would really help get the word out and raise the visibility of the Creative Life show.
