Fredrik Haren Dream-Inspired Creativity

Fredrik Haren is The Creativity Explorer. He has spent the last 25 years traveling the world to learn as much as he can about human creativity. He is the author of ten books - including “the idea book” which was included in “the 100 best business books of all time” and Fredrik has been invited to speak more than 2000 times in 70 countries on 5 continents. As The Creativity Explorer, he aims to discover more about human creativity, be it from innovators in Silicon Valley or nomads in the desert of Mongolia. His latest project is a novel, published on Penguin, called “The Unvisible” about an invisible human race living next to us.

- Where did the idea for the book come from? (a dream)
- How did you approach writing fiction after many years and success writing non-fiction?
Where did the ideas in the book come from (subconscious)?
- What is the difference between writing fiction and non-fiction
- The ability to listen to your subconscious for ideas
- Taking time off to focus on your most valuable ideas
The creative process
- The value of doing something very different from what you know

For More of SuperCreativity Podcast By James Taylor

Artificial Intelligence Generated Transcript

Below is a machine-generated transcript and therefore the transcript may contain errors.

Fredrik Haren Dream-Inspired Creativity

James Taylor  0:00  

I'm James Taylor, and you're listening to the super creativity podcast a show dedicated to inspiring creative minds like yours. Fredrik Haren is the creativity explorer. He has spent the last 25 years traveling the world to learn as much as he can about human creativity. He is the author of 10 books, including The Idea Book, which has included the 100 best business books of all time. And Frederick has been invited to speak more than 2000 times in 70 countries on five continents. As the creativity explorer, he aims to discover more about human creativity, be it from innovators in Silicon Valley or nomads in the desert of Mongolia. His latest project is a novel published on penguin called “The Unvisible”, about an invisible human race, living next to us, please welcome to the show, Fredrik Haren

Fredrik Haren  0:55  

Thank you very much, James.

James Taylor  0:57  

Good to see you. As always. Now, we had you very early on in the podcast, I think it was episode 67. But talking about a very different part of your life. But today, we're talking about this brand new book. So tell us where you're all the ideas with the idea of the book come from?

“The Unvisible”

Fredrik Haren  1:14  

Yes. So this is where I don't think we'll talk too much about the book, perhaps, but about the process of writing it because it's a very special was a very special process, which I find hugely interesting, and I think beneficial to when you think about creativity, so I had actually gone down to Bangkok to on the with the purpose of writing a novel, but on a totally different subject about a girl living in China. That was the idea. But the first night in Bangkok, I woke up in the middle of the night, and I just had this most amazing. It was the most vivid dream I've ever had. I basically dreamt a whole movie I dreamt about what they look like how they talk, what they dress, like, what happened everything. I woke up at 2 am. And I just said, what are usually you forget dreams, but this FIFO I remember everything. I stood up and I wrote down everything I could, I went back to sleep, I woke up the next morning, and I looked at it and I said, you know screwed up. In China, that's not going to be the novel. This is the novel. So it was I look at it as it was a gift was give us an idea given to me in a dream. And then I get more interested in what is this kind of creativity because it's so profound versus the normal Korean, like, I'm going to come up with an idea. It's almost like it's two different things.

James Taylor  2:41  

You're almost like out, you're kind of capturing ideas as around the ether as whether you call it a collective consciousness or you're kind of pulling on different Yeah,

Fredrik Haren  2:51  

yeah. So for example, now it has my in the book has my name on the cover. But that's only because Penguin insisted to put my name on it. I wanted it to be called the Unvisible as told to Fredrik Haren and not by Medicare because that's how I look at this. I didn't I didn't come up with this idea. I didn't, I didn't create it. It was given to me. And I wrote it down to the best of my abilities. And during the whole writing process, I could go back and I could I like I would sit I would just basically write whatever I remembered from the dream. And then when I get stuck, I would just look up and I say, Okay, what happened next. And I'll just wait, and then it will come to me, I will continue writing. So I was a which is a wonderful thing. Because if someone reads the book and says I don't like it, I have zero issues it is like you can say you can read this book and say that you hate it and I go, that's fine. I'm not going to take it personally because I didn't come up with it. And it creates this liberating feeling that this is an idea that I have been. I have been given a mission to take care of. So I started looking into this and saying what is this in English, and in most languages, we have one word for an idea. Like I have an idea and it incorporates all ideas. But I accelerate that there are two kinds of ideas. And I met this sculpture in Hong Kong. His name was John's here. His name is Johnson sang. And he's amazing he doesn't Google him, it does amazing sculptures. Most of them and then some of them are just Donald Trump or something like this. And you can often you go into a studio right away you see that one of the super creative, like kids going into each other and it's very, very, very surreal. And the other ones are just normal sculptures. And we talked about it and he described it as he called it divine ideas and mortal ideas. So divine ideas where I could point in a sculpture and I say let me guess that's a divine idea. Yeah, absolutely. And this one Yeah, it's a mortal idea. You could see right away So the divine ideas are some ideas that come from somewhere else. And you just say, I'm going to do the best I can to make the to make it honor this idea and the mortal ideas, ideas that you come up with someone says, Where should we go on vacation, and you go, I know, let's go to North Korea. That's a mortal idea, you come up with it. But the divine idea is something you get in meditation in the shower when you're dreaming when you're waking up, and you don't say, I'm going to have an idea. It just comes to you.

James Taylor  5:33  

So that almost reminds me a little bit of what someone like Elizabeth Gilbert speaks out this idea that someone having creative genius versus being the creative genius idea that up until basically the 15th 16th century, it was always considered that we were more kind of vessels for idea and creativity, inspiration flowed through us. So one thing is you mentioned that mortal word I do then have to ask, does it require only humans to have this because I'm looking at some of the art just now being generated by things like artificial intelligence? If and I, I don't, I'm not a religious person, but you could almost describe some of them as having that kind of divine nature. Like, where did that come from? Yeah, that's kind of that's something else is not something that you would have imagined in that way. So. So does it have to be humans? Do we have to be the ones to create stuff? Are we just vessels for this creativity?

Vessels For Creativity

Fredrik Haren  6:33  

I guess I totally understand what you mean. And I think the fact that a computer can create something like this, it may be proof that it doesn't require a divine force when he called it the divine, he didn't mean God. I mean, it could be God. But that's not the point. The point is that it comes something that comes outside it maybe also maybe it's just outside our own consciousness that's that if we look at it, that way we have the mortal ideas is within our consciousness. Where should I go on vacation, let's go to North Korea? That's, that's knowledge and information, we combine it and we have an idea, anything outside our conscious, it feels divine, just because we are not aware of it. But the more you look into this, the more you realize that I mean, the part that is that we are consciously aware of is just a tiny bit of what we actually know. And you and you look at people who have really, really good ideas like noble, you've studied Nobel Prize winners, a lot of these ideas are divine ideas that just came to the person because they were open. I remember Johnson said that, when I haven't, when I have a divine idea, my mind is called. Right? When you brainstorm Oh, I'm gonna have an idea on this to do let's do this, let's do that, oh, I have no all we can do this. That's a mortal idea to trying to make it better. But it's, it is kind of forced a divine idea. You just get it. And then you just try not to disturb it almost like an angel or a ghost or a spirit that comes in and you're terrified to scare it away. So you just stay call and just let the idea come to you. It's totally two totally different kinds of mentalities.

James Taylor  8:07  

So the last time, we saw each other in person, my wife and I were kindly visiting you and your family on your island of Stockholm. And we had a day went to the Nobel Prize museum. And as we were walking around there, we visited an exhibit there from Linus Pauling, the twice Nobel Prize winner. And it was berry as French berry always kept on his desk to remind him that even though he was a man of science of data, he was also an artist, a creative as well. And I told that story a few times at events after that. And it was only probably last month, I found out, I was wrong, and the story that I was selling, and I felt a bit embarrassed, because the big secret is only now just coming out is how important his wife was for his research and his work, but she got hidden out of the picture. So you talked about your book being about unvisible. Yeah. So I wonder, even in the work that you're doing in putting out this novelist's fiction book, how are these other maybe invisible people around you, family, mentors, people that inspired you? How do they relate to your creativity?

Fredrik Haren  9:27  

I think I just came back from a brainstorming meeting with a good friend Mr. Andrew Ryan, do you actually know him? And we had a brainstorm. I was walking on the beach. He was walking on the beach in Portugal and we were just brainstorming ideas and slicing for mortal ideas. Your friends your relatives and your network are crucial because they can give new input on what you're seeing. And together you create something more than ideas are not bad. They are they are beautiful. They can be amazing. I'm not trying to, like talk bad about them. But when it comes to the divine it is the rest of the world that doesn't matter. So it has no influence on it, it doesn't come from another person, it doesn't come from this world, it's come from somewhere else. And, and something that you would never think of yourself. Like they said in this book I didn't want to write what I wanted, I thought I had an idea for a novel that would sell well, because it will be a Chinese girl and blah, blah, blah. That's me trying to come up with a sellable idea. This, this is a story about an Indian, this, and it's called the invisible because it's about an anvil, an invisible human race like we are black people and white people, Asian people, but there's also a totally transparent human race. And that is so I would never come up with that myself. But that fact was what the dream was about. And then it becomes what is, what does it mean to be human? If there is another invisible human race that we cannot see? How do we what is humanity? What is racism? All these questions, big, philosophical questions, that I address through the metaphor of an invisible human race.

James Taylor  11:07  

Now you've had a history of writing nonfiction, books, business books. And I think I recommended a book to you recently was about a travel writer is actually a compendium of travel writing of different travel writers. And in that book, we actually had the author Tim Hannigan on a little while ago, and he was saying that books speak to other books. And you see that a lot in nonfiction business books that one book comes out. And it's, it's building on that it's standing on the shoulders of giants of other books have come before and it's speaking to those other books. So you've now written a fiction novel, a novel book? How is that the same? Or is it different in terms of working on the things that have come before it?

Fiction Novel VS Business Books

Fredrik Haren  11:52  

Yeah, so I've written 10 business books. And you would think that writing a business book, writing fiction or writing nonfiction should be more or less the same as a bunch of words, put it together, create the structure, but I come to realize it's almost opposites, there are very few things that are the same, and it's totally opposite. I think I did a tweet recently, or a post lives, I said, writing a business book is, is putting out the clearest thoughts that you have in your head. That's a business book like that. What do you do when you write nonfiction? When you write, when you write fiction, it is put in the deepest thoughts that you have in your heart, which is totally different. When you write a business book, you tried to give answers. This is how you build a global company. This is how you become more creative. When you write a nonfiction book, you're asking questions, what does it mean to be human? What is racist? What is white skin was the most look frowned upon? Skin? Why can't we think of as together as one like deep, profound philosophical questions that your reader reads? And there are no answers in this book? No, no novel gives answers. They get you to ask questions. You think about it like this. It's you realize they're, they're quite opposite. And I did an analogy was writing a business book is cross country skiing. Yes, you're struggling. You're sweaty, it's hard work. It's boring. And you're smiling because you're enjoying it. But it's, it's a hell of a struggle. And after eight hours of this, you're, you're exhausted, and you say never again, and writing a novel, it's like downhill skiing, you're, you're going too fast, you might crash, you're just trying to, everything is just focused on not falling, and make it down alive. And that's how it is it's two, they're both skiing, but they have nothing in common.

James Taylor  13:49  

So with a nonfiction business book, when I speak to people that have written many of like yourself, there's often a lot of research that has to go into that you're researching, you're reading, reading, reading, reading, and you have to kind of stop basically reading and start writing ideas. When it comes to a novel, a fiction book. What role does, I guess? What role does research have in that

Fredrik Haren  14:11  

process? That's a good question. I just thought about that a couple of days ago. So when you write a business book, you do all the research. First, you will interview hundreds and hundreds of people, you have an idea of what you want to write a book about. But you actually don't know what it will be about until you've done all the research or you interview hundreds of you have tons and tons of notes. And then suddenly a picture starts to appear. And you go, this is my book. And then the writing is just condensing all that research. When you write a novel or a fiction book is the total opposite. You have this idea of the story you want to tell and you don't have to do any reacher research on that at least if you get the idea is that mic kind of a divine idea. There's zero research in it, you just write it. But there is research as in, for example, there is an episode in my book about the invisible gardens. In Japan, they have this. There are gardens where there are 14 stones in the garden of n of n. But regardless of where you stand in the garden, you all always only see 13 There's always one hidden. And in my book that is a metaphor that the invisible built this garden because the invisible stone is the metaphor for the invisible people. Suddenly, I'm doing all this research about the invisible gardens in Japan and Kyoto. And so to put that in to make it, you know, as much fact that I can to make it more interesting to read. So the research is has nothing to do with the story. But it makes the story more believable. More interesting, you learn things when you read. So you see the so reefer first and then right, and for, for a fiction book, right, and then add the research to totally different processes.

James Taylor  15:49  

So I think there's that line, which says something is about actors, and they see, we tell it really storytelling we tell lies, in order to tell a bigger truth. In acting, you're telling a series of lies, you are not that person, you're, you're playing someone else. So fiction, you're obviously you're inhabiting, you're creating characters, you're creating worlds. I'm interested that when you kind of go back to have to switch to doing what your guest day job is of traveling around the world, and more speaking or giving, giving presentations, are you going to take some of that? I was gonna say, telling lies for a bigger truth, but you know, use the use of fiction devices in order to give a bigger idea or a bigger story.

Fredrik Haren  16:35  

Actually, you know, what? It's a good question. But I would actually think it's, I wouldn't say it's the opposite. I think that when you tell a fiction story as I said, it is it's the, it's the fourth, it's the feelings of your heart. So the message I send in the novel is much more true than anything I've ever written, in nonfiction. So in the these are you get I get out the messages that I want to tell the world in this book is, is if I could choose I'd much rather people read this book than any ness books I've ever read. Because those thoughts to me seem very shallow compared to the message that I can communicate in a novel. So to me, this book is more real than, any nonfiction book I've ever written. Because that's just a description of part of the world. That the novel is a world the whole world. A made-up word, but still a whole world full that totally belongs together. Everything makes sense. It's like the alchemist, you read the alchemist. And there is a message that is more true than dead the truth. Good, good fiction, good fiction is more positive. Yeah, that good fiction communicates a truer truth than truth.

James Taylor  17:56  

So was the pandemic happening? Quite a useful period, a time that you could, you can afford to switch things up to give yourself the space and the time to be able to switch gears and go a little bit deeper?

Fredrik Haren  18:11  

Yes, so I, when I write books, I need to just write books. So I would set aside times that I'm going to write for 10 days, I do nothing but write for 10 days, this book I wrote over many, many years. So most of it, I wrote before the pandemic, I would go 10 weeks and sit down in 10 days and sit on a beach in the Philippines. And I would write from seven in the morning to seven in the evening. And I do that 10 days straight. And then I will just forget about a book. So for years, I didn't do anything, then I go back, I will write it again. Because you can you can write a business book by adding a little bit of research all the time, but a fiction book you have to it's like you travel to a different world. And you can't you need to take a while to get there. And then when you're in that world, you don't want to leave it you want to stay there. Because yeah, yeah. Yeah. You can't just go and suddenly answer some emails and then go back to writing. Because suddenly you're literally traveling into a different world a different space in your head. So yeah, so but the pandemic made me get the book out on Penguin because I said, You know what I'm going to this book needs to come out. Now, this is a message for the post, because there's a message about humanity and COVID made us one everyone got this disease, it affected everyone from Africa to Silicon Valley, we just became everyone can get COVID This is human things. So the message is very much post comment and suitable for post comments, so to speak.

James Taylor  19:38  

So what are the things that you may be discovered about your own creative process in the course of writing this type of book, a very different type of book than you'd written before that you want to carry forward into some of the other things that you do?

Not to try to be creative

Fredrik Haren  19:53  

Not to try to be creative. I think a lot of people try to be creative I am going to be creative. Now I'm going to go into we're gonna have a brainstorming session, I'm going to go into our creative room. And you can come up with really, really good ideas that way. But you can't come up with great profound world-breaking ideas that way. Instead, you need to be better than at picking up better at listening to your dreams, better at picking up that thought that just kind of whispers in the back of your head, better at observing the world. Those are the things better than observing your thoughts. And that is a much more relaxing, much more nonegoistic way of being creative. It takes much less energy to do this. I have another great example if you want one of the most amazing people I've ever met when it comes to creativity. I but it's Diani Helter I think is how you say it. He's a watch designer. And he used to work for all the big watch companies and he would work 1518 hours a day it slept like five hours per night. Just work, work, work work. And he did brilliant work. But then, of course after why he did this for 15 years. And then suddenly his body just said, You know what, you are lacking sleep. So I'm going to have you sleep. And for one year I think was 2011. For one year, this man slept 15 hours a day, every day for a year. And when he woke up, he binge-watched Star Trek was the only thing it did was a way binge for Todrick for a few hours, went back to sleep again for a year. And then boom, in the middle of this period, he dreams the most amazing watch you've ever seen. Deep Space resonance, I think it's called. And it's a 3d watch. It doesn't just the mechanism is not 2d Like Like all other watches. They are 3d and they move to google it is just crazy. He wakes up and says this is the watch I'm going to do. And he because he was sleeping so much. He will he went to his team and started to build it. And then it didn't make sense because it's so complex. He said, Wait a minute, I'll just go back to my dream. So he went back slept, and he could go back to the same dream and look at the detail of the watch. And look, how does this mechanism work? And you wake up the next day, okay, I solved it, and then they worked this kind now we're stuck again, go back into the dream. And This watch has won prizes as the most innovative Archer it's like no other watch you've ever seen has a glass bowl dome over it. It's you see this kind of idea in your mind of what on earth? Am I doing? Try to brainstorm some good ideas. No, no, you actually go the other way. This is where that's where the magic happens.

James Taylor  22:51  

So on that topic of sleep, creativity, that idea of tapping into the subconscious in that kind of sleep space as well. One of the things I always love about having conversations with you is our brains work very differently. And so you'll see something like that. And the first thing I'm thinking like, okay, how can I hack that? How can I make it into a process? How? So when you're saying that I'm suddenly thinking about things like West Point Military Academy in America where they teach pre-loading? Yeah, so they'll say to the military grad students, okay, two hours we go to sleep at night, I want you to think of a question problem that you're trying to solve, and then let your subconscious work on it overnight. Or, I saw something the other day that I think just some new research that just came out, talking about the perfect length of time to almost have power naps. In order to kind of just getting into that part of the kind of subconscious mind. I mean, I think Thomas Edison said never go to sleep without a request to your subconscious. So we're in the process, knowing kind of what you know, having studied creativity at a very, very deep level, having written this book, whether other things like that you're able to do to I'm gonna say hack or tap into that subconscious, or is it just a case? Okay, we just need to sleep a lot. Let it go. And hopefully, something's gonna happen.

Tapping The Subconscious

Fredrik Haren  24:19  

Yeah, I think there's something I think the answer is somewhere in between. I don't think, for example, it's kind of like saying, how do you fall in love? And can I hack that? And then can I make it? Can I make someone fall in love? I'm sure you can. But true love doesn't really come that way. Does it? Right. It just, it you can make.

James Taylor  24:35  

You might say that, but they're

Creativity: Hack it, But try Not To trick it.

Fredrik Haren  24:37  

no, no, no, I'm saying you can hack it. Like if okay, if I buy flowers on the first date, and so on, so you can hack it. But there's also a part of it that you just can't hack, right? So there are both sides. So yes, I think it's a great idea to try to hack it, but not try to trick it. Do you see the difference? Because you can trick your subconscious to come up with good or you can help it but you can't track it. So that's how I did it. I would, for example, that's why I would go to a beach in the Philippines and write my book. And people would come up to me and say, Oh, my good life, man, because you're working on your vacation. I said, No, no, no, I'm not on vacation, I'm working. But I, my brain think it's on vacation. So my brain was sitting there watching the waves, feet, feeling the sand. And in fact, all my brain was like, oh, I'm on vacation. But no, I was actually writing. And it was easier for me to connect with that pure side of myself because I wasn't sitting in an office trying to write a book. So that was a way of tricking it, so to speak, or not, I'm not tricking it, but a way of priming in my mind. What do you call it when you like, like setting the table for my creative, I was preparing it, so to speak, but I wasn't tricking my brain. I was preparing my brain to give it the best circumstances to do what the brain is good at doing. So you

James Taylor  26:01  

really what you're talking about there is what let's say like the Romans, they would refer to it as the genius loci in Latin this idea that places themselves can have their own creative genius, not just about the news. And so I know for some people, they get their best ideas when they've been working really, really hard. And then they go on a really long flight. And they can just sit there and there's no way no distractions you can do other people I know it's physical activity, you know, they want to get out other people mentioned long walks on the beach, other people it's so what for you, you mentioned a couple of things here, walking, and water. Yeah, is

Fredrik Haren  26:39  

that water is a big one. For me. That's why I live on an island and so on. But one other thing, though, is observation. Observing your ideas, observing your subconscious, giving you ideas is very, like you seeing the logo on the book. It's a yin and yang, but the.is, based in the black doc.is missing. And this is a metaphor because the invisible people are white or transparent. And we are humans, the rest of us are black, and they are visible are part of our world. But we are not part of their world anymore, we have lost our ability to see the invisible people that is the metaphor of the yin and yang symbol. And it's also about wholeness, like good and bad. Light and darkness and so on. And that's the metaphor of union Yang, but the. is missing. And I was in a spa in China many, many years ago, when I just had the idea to that for the invisible. I was in a spa. And they and I were standing in the reception. And I looked down and they had a huge yin and yang symbol, maybe two meters in diameter. And I looked down and I was covering the black dot with my feet. And I looked down and I go, there it is, that's the symbol for the invisible ask them together, but not together, darkness, light, and so on. And then I and the missing dot and then I took up our feet, okay, I was standing on the door. So that was you know, that was my subconscious. But I was there to observe that this is an idea coming to you, like a flicker of light or, or a spirit or whatever you want to see. And most people if you're not observing to your own subconscious, people that just because that goes it's gone in a millisecond. Those thoughts are given to you, but they're very quickly redraw redrawn again. And you need to be able to catch them for catching fireflies

James Taylor  28:24  

always reminds me of people like David, David Byrne, the transcendental he does a lot of Transcendental Meditation, we talked about often the ideas that we see are those ideas are bubbling the bubbled up at the top, the little small mob, always by the time they reach the surface of the idea, we see the little bubbles at the top of the water or the waves at top of the water. And he said can you can train your mind to go a few fathoms deeper to look at where does it originate from? Or where is that the Where's this coming from? Or how is that cool, and that opens up a whole wider range of things and the stuff that actually ends up making it to the surface.

Dream-Inspired Creativity

Fredrik Haren  29:01  

And that's where the good stuff is. And you can't if you do that metaphor, you can't pull too hard on that line, it will break and then you will lose it. Just like remembering a dream like you can't if you try too hard to remember a dream you don't. So it's all about trying to stay in this no man's land and, and be conscious enough to be able to figure out what the dream is about but not walking because it's like a soap bubble as well. It's gone. It's gone forever. So try to keep the balance there.

James Taylor  29:30  

Well, I can never remember my dreams. So if anyone has any advice on how to better remember

Ideas Machines

Fredrik Haren  29:36  

but it doesn't have to be a dream. I think it's very important. It doesn't have to dream like when the sculpture that he was meditating and he was dreaming but you can have divine ideas also when you are awake, for sure is just buried for example it can be in a walk or sitting on a beach it is basically when the conscious mind is not chatting so much. So it's not about you doesn't have to be. And when you have those ideas like when, for me, it was 2 am. I was deep. I was deeply asleep. And suddenly this came to me I was wide awake. It was right there. And I just write it down.

James Taylor  30:10  

I think for me, it's showers. I look at showers, the ideas machines. Yeah. For me, there's just something about the maybe it's the water. You mentioned the water. Oh, who knows?

Fredrik Haren  30:21  

I don't know. You bring I have a theory that I think because people have good ideas in the shower when they're in a car. So it's moving around like this when it's dark when they're sleeping, or when the eyes are not open. And all when they're alone. And you, you take all those things and you combine it, that's the world, right? You're confined by water. It's pumping around, it's dark, and you're by yourself. And that's where your brain started to work. That's where your brain is actually was turned on for the first time. So I saw him and you have those things where you go into those water tanks. It's great for creativity or meditating. It's all about that space. So um, yeah, so I think that the brain works very well in those situations. And yes, showers are amazing. I had an amazing idea to shower today.

James Taylor  31:10  

And I'm reminded as well, people like Count Basie, Duke Ellington, had their own because they traveled too much. They had their own railway carriages, their own Pullman's railway carriages that all the band would go on. And so they always said, they wrote some of their best pieces, their best songs when they were these carriages, this long journeys, they're looking out the window, the landscapes are flying by it's quieter. The only downside is you do notice a lot of these tunes. I had the same kind of tempo as the train as well. So

Fredrik Haren  31:41  

did you see the mini commercial? They just did a mini commercial for Christmas, you know, driving home for Christmas? Yeah, that song was written in a mini when he was driving home for Christmas. So now they did the mini commercial with him driving the Mini. So that's great. But then you can watch the Beatles documentary on Disney plus, and you see they're all sitting together playing together. So you know both works, but you need to but we need to understand that those driving home for Christmas and writing a Beatle song together in the studio, are not the same kind of creativity. They are we should always have two different words for or we should have two different words for it.

James Taylor  32:19  

Although I do I do remember once reading a book with John Lennon see said to Paul McCartney, okay, we need to write a swimming pool. Because he wanted a swimming pool. So it's gonna be so popular. It's gonna buy as a swimming pool. So it's not entirely may be altruistic. Fredrik is always fantastic at speaking to you. Where is the best place for people to go and get a copy of The Unvisible

Fredrik Haren  32:42  

amazon.com Fantastic walks,

James Taylor  32:45  

direct everyone there will direct people to your website as well. It's been fantastic hearing about, this journey. You've gone into writing, this fiction novel for the first time as well. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your journey.

Fredrik Haren  32:59  

Yeah, thank you. And I hope it inspires some people to listen more to the subconscious to give the subconscious a chance because there are some beautiful ideas waiting there to be picked up.

James Taylor  33:11  

You can subscribe to the super creativity podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts while you're there. Please leave us a review. I would really, really appreciate it. I'm James Taylor, and you've been listening to the super creativity podcast.

Fredrik Haren Dream-Inspired Creativity