Ethical Vegan

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James Taylor  0:00  

themes Taylor, and you're listening to the awesome creativity podcast,t a show dedicated to inspiring creative minds like yours. This week sees the start of cop 26 in Glasgow, a summit that brings the world together to accelerate action towards the goals of the Paris agreement and the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. To mark the occasion, we decided to record a unique series of the awesome creativity podcast that will focus on sustainability and climate change. For this series, I'll be joined by a co-host for the very first time, ethical futurist, lawyer, engineer, actor, jazz singer, and sustainability keynote speaker, Allison burns. Together we'll be having conversations with leading thinkers on topics as they vs. sustainable food, fashion, and ESG those environmental, societal, and governance issues that affect business today. Our guest this week is originally from Catalonia but is now a resident in the UK. Jody customer Jana is a vegan zoologist specializing in animal behavior who has been involved in different aspects of animal protection for many years, working for organizations such as the Born Free Foundation while futures, the League against cruel sports CAAs international the International Fund for animal welfare, and PETA UK. In addition to scientific research, he has worked as an undercover investigator animal welfare consultant. Some of his professional achievements include the closure of several zoos, securing the first successful prosecutions of illegal hunters under the hunting act 2004, and his participation in the banning of bullfighting in Catalonia. Jody who has been vegan since 2002 recently became well known for securing the legal protection of all ethical vegans from discrimination in Great Britain, a landmark legal case that was discussed all over the world. Jordi is also an author of a novel titled The demons trial under the pen name, Jay Z caster, in which he explores many of the dilemmas and protection of space. He is also the author of ethical vegan a personal and political journey to change the world. In our interview, we discussed the future of plant-based foods, sustainable diets. And Jodi's love of wasps. Enjoy the show. Charlie, welcome to the show.

Jordi Casamitjana  2:08  

Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

James Taylor  2:11  

Naturally, you must be the only person I know that loves wasps. So tell us about the moment when you realize it was possible to love wasps.

 

Love Of Wasps

Jordi Casamitjana  2:20  

Alright, yeah, this is a question I've been asked quite often because you're right, most people either hate loss or run away from them in panic. And when I was younger, I was exactly sanguine. Anybody else. But I am a zoologist. I started my degree in zoology, and I specialized in animal behavior school ethnology studies. And I decided to study a species that nobody else was studying, just thinking that would be a good idea to have more opportunity to publish material with it. So in the middle of my degree, I decided I'm going to do social wasps, because everybody hates them. But of course, being anthologies, you have to study them in the wild by observing that is not about experimental observation. So I had to go to the world to find a nest and observe it. And the first time I had to do that was quite prehensive. Because obviously, they could see me many of them. And I didn't know much about him. So but my first day, my first experience was amazing, because that's what really set up my path towards the different person I am now, because it was like anyone else had, they just didn't, since they don't matter that much. And then suddenly, they found this nest, they had a god, this species have guards on the entrance, checking who causes him to go back, I knew that. So I need to, I need to pay attention to the guard, because that would be the one that would raise the alarm. If something was wrong, it should run for my life. So I was paying attention to the guardian in the guards, Sony. And when she saw me, she turned in and look at me in a bad moment. I had an epiphany, it was an experience surreal, of seeing a tiny one inch individual looking at me, judging, making an analysis of whether you deserve to leave or not. And basically said, You're right. I like and allow me to observe. And that experience was a revelation because I realized they can judge, they actually judge better than the people I met in my life. They know for many more things that I thought I would know like, assessing me just with look, and they are so badly treated, they and everybody else that I can just be as you all it is, I need to be an animal protectionist I need to protect these animals. And since then, I've really been so close to the wards because I felt an intruder to the lives by observing them. So I felt like guilt element in that and but also if I see a wasp in peril, I go and drop everything to save it. But you're to save her of him because just yet part of my life and that was one of the milestones the later on develop into me becoming

James Taylor  4:53  

so it's recognizing is that there's, I remember reading years ago about when I don't know if it's the same with animals, or insects, but with humans, when we look each other in the eye oxic the chemical oxytocin gets released in the bloodstream, which is the chemical which is for empathy. So it can we get this can empathize when we see people face to face. So I'm wondering like with, with wasps, there's oxytocin gets released in them when when they had that little chemical reaction.

Jordi Casamitjana  5:23  

I don't think they have oxytocin, but they might have an equivalent hormone, or doesn't need to be home, it could be just the nervous system reacting the same way. But remember, we started talking just recently, we evolved from non Tolkien animals, which communicated very well, everything they needed to know, anything that we do. Now, we were able to do before we were able to talk. And that means animals can do the same, they can food, they can find shelter, they can see danger. So all the mechanisms in the brains already well set up without verbal communication, it doesn't matter if your means It means it has to live in the same world with the same perils and the same need. So they are the same. So but what we hardly do is to what what you just said, look at another animal's eyes, we just normally look at the body from a distance. But when you do, and I do it often is one of my favorite things to look at an auto animals, specifically another animal life, what I see is wisdom. I don't see an automaton I don't see a machine, I don't see an object, I see a wise being. And I certainly go back. If I look at an children, animal life, I choose to see children, and see children actually still learning about the world, but a narrow got it already. And that's what always I like to see in animals, that wisdom, far better in many roles than ours, and we still children growing up. And that happens with all the species and was told me besides, you don't need to be like me, they don't need to be mammals, they don't need to be primates could be anyone. And that connection between two species could happen on all levels. And if that's the case, all animals, not just the bigger ones, not just dogs and cats needs to be protected.

James Taylor  7:04  

I know. I know, you're always Allison's always when we're walking around the fields near where we live. And if there's cows, there, Alice's always takes time. And because cows got these beautiful eyes with the eyelashes, I

Allison Burns  7:17  

always look straight into their eyes. And I think to them as well, because I think there's an experience here that they've maybe never had. And I purposely go out and walk because we're in the countryside. I walk around and I sing to the cartels. And they are they gather round in a very curious, and I thought, You know what I'm just giving, I just wanted to give them something different in their day, that they maybe think, Oh, that was that was unusual, you know, and maybe not all humans act in the same way. But get back to insects as well, because insects are also perceived as pests. And I know you've you've written an article on that lately as well. And, but how they organize themselves is just fascinating. When you watch ants, and I, I just rescued the night from the bathroom. This morning, I would never crush an insect, I would always pick it up and just take it outside and help find it. You know, it's feedom outside and even a fly on the window. I scoop it up in a glass and put it outside. It may not survive. It may survive on a hot day, but maybe not tomorrow, if it's so cold, but at least I'm not I'm not you know killing it. I'm not ending its life. Its life will end when when his life ends naturally. But I just thought with your studies in relation to what you've written in your book is when insects are organizing themselves, what can what can humans learn from the way that they organize themselves? They, like you said they're wise they have other wisdoms that we don't know. Well, they can

Jordi Casamitjana  8:47  

learn many things in particular, I mean, insects is a huge world. There's so many types. And in fact, if an alien landed in this planet, they come back to their home, they will say, yeah, there is an insert planet with some mammals going in messing things up. But this is an insert planet is really populated by. But this one type of things that insert have achieved far better than humans chaos. And we could learn from them societies. They are the kings of societies, the most sophisticated societies in the planet, insect societies, wasps, bees, and termites. And the ons are the most sophisticated of all, the worst one, the least sophisticated, I actually studied was to study that milestone between our society in the insect society because what's been less sophisticated in their society, they're slightly closer to human society, but we just aspire to be social, but we still selfish we're still not well organized. We made more mistakes and things right. We just achieved things by trial and error in non stop not because we were efficient it just because we have many people try and make mistakes, but insects They, this society, there's a term in biology, it's called EU society he uses it means proper society. So evolution leads to an increase of organization getting more complex. And you've got from cells to individuals, from deals to groups, to groups to societies and the highest level achieve ever in as far as we know, in any planet is an US society. We haven't reached that. But insert and habit, this habit, termites habit, so they are already born with a role. They mean, they know what need to do, they have solutions for the problems, they have a very efficient way to build things without wasting material, deficiency in runners societies can learn from them. But for me, I mean, I'm amazed by the societies of ants. But I also like the flying the Ladybird, the one that doesn't have a society that's because I don't think being good or being amazing is about being similar to humans is, the more different an animal is from a human, the more I enjoy experiencing the life.

Allison Burns  11:10  

And observing that I suppose we can, we can learn if people just take the time to look at the small things, the small lives, how things are connected, how things are interconnected in nature, and how each species even however small they are, have the altruistic way of operating amongst themselves into species is quite fascinating. But do you think?

James Taylor  11:35  

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's fascinating because the work I do with companies around innovation, and always astounds me that they don't spend more time looking in terms of nature. Because you've obviously there's an evolutionary process has happened there, and you look at some of these under microscopes, these things are kind of going on. And I think, obviously, in some industries are a little bit more like that. But a lot of industries never seem to look at nature. It seems like it's another place you don't think you think about it so much.

Creativity And Nature

Jordi Casamitjana  12:04  

You, actually, you're right, but but I just gonna say this, there is no better place to learn about creativity than nature. Just constantly creating new things, solving, problem solving problem, solving any problems. That's nature, the masters of soul problem solving, are natural processes, biological geological, of any sort. So you're right, this surprised that somebody wants to be creative and innovative. And he knows the source of creativity that is there for inspiration available for everyone.

James Taylor  12:38  

Now, I read an article you wrote the other day, where you were challenging the whole idea of plant based is this phrase we hear? Today we see like, restaurants, food brands, which TV does people describe themselves as plant as plant based? So what is your issue with that term? Because we often hear vegan plant based kind of used interchangeably, but they're, they're different. So what's your take on it?

Jordi Casamitjana  13:03  

Well, first, they don't like that. Motivation. In my article, it doesn't sound right you can, you have to say you are you a plant based person, when you say you're the one who says three words that you need for rather than why I don't like the word, I don't have any problem with the people. So the person that defines itself as plant based, it's fine. Now, everybody can define yourself with any word they want. But in a world where we have so many labels, what I'm worried about is that when people are considering becoming vegan, and then they see that there is an easy version in which they have to commit less, they don't have to follow any particular definition, because plant based is has been defined. And they would choose the easy option, therefore minimizing the ability or the potential to help others, and therefore is kind of giving an easy solution. That is not going to help in the long term, because we have big crisis going on now with animal suffering, the global warming, so we need urgent solution. So we can't just have do a solution. And veganism gives you that. But anything that is less than veganism, if you put it a name, then people might assume there is an identity associated to it. And rather than moving towards becoming ethical and doing less harm, they will say they're in a comfortable zone of the plan base thinking they're doing something, when in fact is just a tiny step. Not quite a significant one.

James Taylor  14:23  

So how do you then break down these, these differentiations is like a continuum where, you know, one end you have carnivores, if that's one side, and gradually, maybe like pescatarians flexitarians, and you hear all these different terms, plant based, vegan, ethical vegan, because obviously some vegans that would wouldn't eat, eat animal products, but they might have things around them which have come from an animal, for example. So I think it'd be useful just to help us distinguish Where do you see that? difference between they say, plant based, vegan, ethical vegan? Where did where did where do they all set?

Ethical Vegan

Jordi Casamitjana  15:06  

Yes, this is a good question because often many people get it wrong. Veganism is a philosophy. So is the philosophy do no harm. And that is well defined, they're not the Vegan Society to find it the work in 1944. And we still have some definition from was finalized in 1988, which is a philosophy a lot of stuff that seeks to exclude, as far as practical and possible. All forms of animal exploitation include means is not a diet, just philosophy that covers everything, you close your hobbies. So you have to always choose an option in any of your choices that doesn't involve animal exploitation. So that's what a vegan is. Part of it, is the diet. So a vegan has a vegan diet. Now, if you only have the vegan diet, and you still don't care about your choices in closing, and detainment, then some people still say I'm a vegan. Well, in fact, they don't follow in the definition. So in fact, what they are is a dietary Deagan. So the only uses the vegan diet part of it, which often people don't like this word they prefer to call it plant based, plant based is somebody that is a dietary difference, definitely somebody that only applies veganism to the diet. But because many people don't even use this word, they just say I'm a vegan and creates a lot of confusion. That's why many vegans including myself, now we use this, we say, I'm an ethical demon, meaning I'm a Truvia. And the Wonder follows the original vegan definition. So it makes it easy now to understand ethical vegan is an actual vegan that follows the definition of veganism, dietary, the plant based person is somebody that only follows the diet. And in terms of the diet, you're right, in terms of the diet, there is a progression depends what you eat, you might be closer to a diet, I vegans, if you had a lot of meat, your current is not negros. The only page pescatarian flexitarian, reduce Italian applying Bayes, and then you get to the V and properly if you move beyond diet, and you start to say I'm going to apply this priority, but it doesn't stop there. You can be an abstinent vegan, so you can be an ethical vegan and go further. I'm an extrovert remind myself to because I don't drink alcohol or drugs. So you can go further. You can be an ethical fruitarian you don't wanna kill many plants as well, you can. So you can just keep going. The whole idea is the same, do no harm. There's a word called Ahimsa Sanskrit word that means do no harm. If you apply this to everywhere, anything that can be Han humans, who sells the environment, you This will limit your shoot as expand that to more and more things to basically every morning, you should wake up and say, what else should I avoid harming this morning? And that should be the life of fanatical person.

Allison Burns  17:45  

It's fascinating because you're talking about there's no there's the labels, but if it gets someone on that journey to being an ethical vegan, then surely that's got to be a good thing. But it you know, as vegans, we're always asking as ethical vegans, we're always asking questions, his questions, because we're seeking, like you see in your book as well. We're seeking the truth we want to find out. Well, not only Well, firstly, your three questions are fascinating. Who am I? What is this? And what should i What should I do it positive, positive or negative? But we're always asking questions. And the first place we go to are the labels we want to see. Okay, I want to know what what this is made out of? I want to know what's in it. I want to know what the process has been, how it got to the shelves, how, you know, so, so the questions that were that were asking, I think a good ethical vegan questions, because we're always pressured. If you don't get the answers. Well, we just won't purchase we won't, we won't create that demand for that product or that exploitation. But what can we do? What can we do as ethical vegans to actually awaken the mindfulness of people who don't ask those questions? It's like, we sit in a room with family members who quite happily suck on prawns and things and it kind of just doesn't sit right with me and I can't you know, as far as we've got family members who are vegans or ethical vegans, and they just don't get it and some people have even said, you know, overall veganism as a cult it says, well, actually, I think meat eating is a cult, you know, it's it, kind of flip it around, because we are the ones who are not doing any harm. But I can be quite old

James Taylor  19:26  

cult if you think about it

Allison Burns  19:30  

is how can we how can we get more people to actually think more fully about what they do and ask the right questions.

Jordi Casamitjana  19:39  

Okay, you asked the right question already. I just asked. You asked me to write the right answer to this question. To be honest, I don't know. That's the thing about this movement. You don't know. We have to try new things. We have to be creative with solutions. Some will work, some won't work. So we work in some places and we work in another places, we can just create a formula and assume they will work everywhere, because it will change with geography with time. But we need to do is basically two things exist, show people that we are there and try new ways to reach others. And the way we want the Bible for you, you might have the skill two for that one and your unique magic may be a perfect writer or a painter, or you're a good speaker, you can argue easily without being pedantic or without great integration. Other people might just like to be in a demonstration and express it vocally, every person might find a nice way to express it by the answer, nobody has it. The point is we all together trying here. But I think in my experience, that the most easier way to to think well, that's more likely to work is just be the means not hide it. Show yourself to the world how a vegan can do what you do, how are we going, Kate when other people think that they won't be able to survive, coward, neither of us is healthy. So it's just show the normality of veganism that you can hold this heavy philosophy of not harm, and yet be a normal human being. To things, tiny human being the best like everybody else's. But you hold the biggest philosophy. If you're

James Taylor  21:23  

enjoying listening to this episode, then check out my interview with Professor Roger Kneebone, where we discuss why experts matter, and how to develop mastery in your chosen profession. Hear my conversation with Professor Roger Kneebone at James taylor.me.

Allison Burns  21:36  

It's interesting because a lot of people, obviously your people curious, the agency or the VOC I want to say I'm 102. That's that's because I've I have a vegan keeps you young.

James Taylor  21:48  

But it's interesting. I mean, it's interesting seeing different generational changes going on as well in terms of the I saw something the other day, in terms of how it's changed why people are becoming vegan, more recently, where maybe Initially it started with, say animals, you know, caring for animals, and then it was health, and then it was environment. It used to be for the younger generation, that's kind of changed. A lot of people like the environment is now the number one thing, and then it kind of goes down from there. So one question as I was reading, I was reading it and there's a story you tell in the book of coming back from Scotland, where we are joining us from today, and come back from anglers sky, and you went home. And even though you're vegan diet free vegan, you looked around your house, and you saw you had things in your house that were made from animal products, chairs, belts, leather belts, things like that. And you just say to have to wait. So one part of me I understood that from an ethical vegan standpoint, but from an ecological standpoint, I was like, well, that thing's already been created. If you're throwing that away, or putting that into landfill, how do you how do you deal with that tension there

Jordi Casamitjana  23:00  

are is your attention, there is attention. And in fact, the solution is not necessarily always throwing them away, you can give it to somebody else, and then you solve the problem. So they issue it on a date time to us because that's the day I can dig in. So I went to the sky, I wrote a novel I became vegan there and I came back as vegan so I left my flat in Brighton as a meat eater came back as a vegan. So everything was not designed for. And of course I had to identify was what was wrong? And sometimes to me, yes, I thought oh, that probably is okay. No is glue in it that I didn't know how to control. And then the solution what I do with it being a new vegan, I'd not didn't get the resolution straightaway. Sometimes I throw innovation at half as you can then over the over the years and you start learning not just to identify the wrong thing. Also the best way to get rid of those as well in a way that is more sustainable. And some of the things I I didn't throw everything away, you have to have some a bit cashmere coat, and I thought I'm gonna use it until it's completely used. But being a philosophy, I had this plan but yet I was feeling guilty all the time. And I just could not use it. Eventually I had to give it to charity, because the philosophy was nagging me in that part of it because it's a philosophy you need to be comfortable with it. So if you cut yourself in contradictory, just been rejecting one product but accepting or not another just for convenience, then you just feel that you're cheating yourself. And therefore, what is important for veganism in my belief is that it you should not be condemned because somebody else tell you just because you want to be you have acquired this philosophy because you think that is the right one you believe in it. And you can use that jeopardize your own psychology by cheating yourself. So in order to reinforce belief, you need to even when nobody's looking even with a product is in your hands and nobody knows that you have it. You know you have it you You haven't, when you go to bed, you wake up feeling guilty. So that's what I had to do get rid of my guilt, by getting rid of the product of all the products that were wrong. And then I realized, well, that never ends every now and then actually discovered something I didn't know there was bigger. And that's okay. Because it's not about not having any animal product. It's about always questioning, always looking for it. If you find it obvious, get rid of it, and never assume the exact opposite. Always keep doing it. Because he said, it's that process of re evaluation, it's not that you're gonna be 100% non cruelty, your existence is part of growth that you bring in the air or somebody else might be needed to breathe. It that is minimizing as much as you can use the harm you do within you possibilities within yourself.

Allison Burns  25:49  

It's also as well, your, when you become an ethical vegan, you stopped creating the demand so that there's no demand for animal products coming from you. And also as well, I think you're absolutely right there is, is that we shouldn't shy away from using the word vegan because it seems to be that and people also shy away from the word ethical as well. But we shouldn't shy away from vegan or ethical vegan is an ethical vegan, because it's, it's what it's who we are and what we stand for. And by being true to yourself. That's like you said, We're the finest ambassadors for that way of living in a cruelty-free, do no harm, we agree with you.

Vegan VS Ethical Vegan

Jordi Casamitjana  26:32  

that you're right. And also, the other dimension of the organism is not just the narrative I mentioned of not harming others, it is the positive dimension of helping other vegans. And therefore, like, you question my coat, I had to buy another one. And I had to buy a vegan coach, and I was hoping for a vegan co-producer. How do you stay with my coat that began, a co-producer would not sell. So by removing one thing, I created the opportunity to get in another from the vegan company economy. And that's another effect. The other fact is not just to make the big world create the vegan world by creating the products that we need in that more oversized book

Allison Burns  27:14  

as fascinating the products that are available these days, and I just find it incredibly creative in relation to what you can buy and also the way that people are reinventing food. How exciting is that? You know, so it's not just the food, it's it's the there's the products that that vegan items are made from like mushrooms, pineapples, it's, it's just incredible. And also that brings up the sustainability issues as well. Because thinking about, you know, palm oil and your decision to ethical veganism is asking all those questions about the joined up environment, nature, animals, is kind of getting back to where it should be getting that equilibrium back without any harm.

James Taylor  28:00  

But here's a problem I had with this book. God, I couldn't get my Kindle fries it from Alison's hand. No, he couldn't do that spare time, because Alison being a lawyer as well. And be great just kind of you to speak about this. Not only did you do the kind of small things in your own life, but you cause a change in the law. And Allison was a legal background in terms of using the law to effect change. She kept reading parts of like, Jane, listen to this, but listen what you did here. So you know, maybe but it'd be maybe kind of fascinating to talk about, you know, the idea that I mean, it's always a scrape to Ghandi, but it's not actually his, quote, be the be the change you want to see in the world. But what did you do? How did you tell us that that change that you were able to affect in the law that now has a pretty huge repercussion in British law?

Equality Act 2010

Jordi Casamitjana  28:57  

I'll start back was because it's easier. The end result was that ethical veganism is now recognized as a protected philosophical belief under the Equality Act 2010. That means if somebody is discriminated against for being an ethical vegan, now the law can be there to be applied. And that happens because I was one of those discriminated against who was fired for being vegan. So I took my former employer, to the employment tribunal, and through two years litigation I won. And the way the Equality Act works is that philosophical beliefs are said to be protected, but they're not defined in the law. So every time that is a new philosophical belief that somebody claims they've been discriminated against, a judge had to go and look at that, and assess what did I believe qualifies or not following a series of characteristics set up by a higher court before the employment Appeal Tribunal, about six or seven points. So I was the first claim in veganism, ethical veganism in particular, so I had to go through that process. So the judge had to look through this and eventually concluded Yes, ethical veganism does fulfill all the conditions therefore From now on, the next big under claims, the same thing doesn't have to go through the same process automatically is accepted as protected. Of course, that's affect a lot. I could have chosen a very particular time of belief that only I, but I chose ethical veganism define us how veganism is defined by the Vegan Society. Therefore, anybody else that follows the same philosophy defined by the dancers it is also difficult, is also protected. And that meant everybody in the world that was interested in this issue started to contact me that news were so hugely widespread in something more than 1000 pages of web of Weird News and more than 67 countries talking about it, because they have beacons everywhere, because discrimination happens everywhere. And they saw this as the first place in the world where veganism has become officially recognized as something more we keep hearing no, this is a fashion is a cold is a trend. And now, a judge says this is as important as Christianity as important, as atheism, as important as feminism, as important as environmentalism is no less than that you kind of be disconnected because of diversity. And never think it isn't hard to put in touch a high order of recognition. And everybody now wants to do wants to do the same everywhere in the world. Of course, the laws do change and bodies in some places or another. But that was my milestone, my my trailblazing experience. But to be honest, I didn't plan this, I just was fired. I just paid attention to what happened to me, and found opportunities when life didn't work. And life

Allison Burns  31:29  

is fascinating. It's absolutely brilliant, what you did, because you stood your ground, you asked the right questions, and you just dug in, and you didn't let go. You know, it was and had you not done that, then then we wouldn't be where we are now with a protected philosophical belief. In fact, you inspired me as well, because we work with artists and performing artists. And recently an artist of ours was performing a big festival. And we put in the contract that any sponsorship had to align with our artists being an ethical vegan, had to align with their philosophical belief. And it totally phased out the promoter. They want to strike through everything this is what hang about this, this is a is protected No. So but in a way, they didn't have a sponsor, but we wanted to make the point. So now what we would like that's an individual doing that, but what we would know thinking is that those big organizations, that's gonna make them think they need to, they need to sharpen their pencil now to make sure that they're aligning. Because, you know, what if they did have a sponsor that was British before Scottish alarm or something, and it just would be a no go area, so it kind of rock the applecart a little bit. So we're quite glad we did that. But that was because of because of your work.

Jordi Casamitjana  32:48  

Well, I'm glad because that's part of why I decided to go to the end of this because no money cannot pay for this. And I could just easily have given up but I knew that if I won, many people will be helped. So therefore that both my driver and I,

Allison Burns  33:02  

people put it into practice, you know, like us, we're putting it into practice what you've done, we're actually now say, Okay, this is where we are. And we have this this protection, though. So,

Jordi Casamitjana  33:12  

so many people did tell me I crowdfund for the money. Eventually, through many donations of vegans, he and I managed to get it. The beacon society also gave me a lot of money for the period about the ethical veganism question. So very thanks for them as well. So there was a lot of people that were very excited through these two years of litigation, or the possibility of me winning and very happy as me as myself when I did.

Allison Burns  33:37  

Fantastic.

The Future Of Vegans

James Taylor  33:38  

So as ethical futurist, with the work we do, we're kind of interesting with a series we're interested in that, that crossroads of ethics and future and the future ism. So, if, if I was asked if we got a crystal ball, and we fast forward it to say 2030, where do you think veganism will be there? What is the future of veganism?

Jordi Casamitjana  34:01  

Well, 2030 is really close. It's just we blink it within a bear. So therefore, I don't expect it's really that different than ours, because the trends that we have now probably one skill would be applicable then which trends, there's more vegan products. So it would be more we can produce then the more vegans in the world, there will be more vegans in the world. But this is a pandemic issue that hasn't been resolved. It might still be pandemic issues, as well. The good thing is that the bad things, bad things such as the I mean, all this is my book, I list all these factors that influence the future. Fake News conspiracy theories that, for me are obstacles towards the thinkable. They're going to still be there. But I think further than 2030 because 2030 is so close. But if you start thinking, Okay, give it 10 years more, that is when you start to see different things happen, because I think it will go in certain cycles, cycles of popularity. Because the world is always just never linear. It's always in cycles. And I think it will dis growth have begun products might go down at one point in the cycle and then go really much from the next point. Because the important thing is not the product, the important thing is not to be heavy, important thing is the philosophy. And it's not enough ethical vegans in the world to sustain living on wall, we have two products, but they're going to be used by mediators, they were used by flexitarians, they're going to use vegetarians, and then forget about we can get something else because they don't have a moral base to keep using those products. So we need to increase the percentage of ethical vegans, because these are the bedrock that will maintain the trends and eliminate the negative ones and enforce the positive ones, and to make a transformative movement. But that's part of what this means. So we don't have enough now it's very tiny percent is 1% 2%, we need 10% 20%. And in 20 years, we can get rich that and when we get when we get to the level of 20% of the population, vegan, whatever word people might use at that time, then dies when we can get to the political power of it, then we can have enough politicians as well following this philosophy that can develop policies and change faster. And the moment we change the slower because we change it from an individual habits change point of view, it's many of us that have to change to make a significant change. But when you start making changes in policy, then things happen very quickly. And politics always work like that. It is not as people supporting an issue, the politicians don't want to pursue it. So we need more people, for them to want to pursue

James Taylor  36:34  

and use that word habits there. I think was Charles Duhigg, wrote a book called The the habits, the cooking of habits or something about habits. And he talked about how there's certain habits, which I think he called a benchmark or pillar habits, you take on this one habit. And it just changes lots of other things in your life. So for example, the one he used was yoga, people that get into yoga, they end up very quickly. They check their diet changes, they stop smoking, they smoke, drink, they reduce their alcohol, there's a whole bunch of things comes from just taking up yoga. And I do wonder this kind of habit now, especially with the younger generations coming through, who are much more environmentally aware, whether that's going to be that core benchmark habit that's going to spur things get that that's not going away anytime soon.

New Generation Of Vegans

Jordi Casamitjana  37:23  

You're right. And I think that habit is the diet, because veganism covers everything. Why are we so obsessed with the day when we could just talk about something else close and, and cosmetic things other groups working on that. But that's not what gets the headlines. Yet, the diet changes and diet vegan diets, get the headlines, because that is one of those that you change the diet and everything falls after that. Why? Because they have so many things. And the way we eat is part of what we ate when we're young. And the memory we had costumes, the smells, there's so many senses involved, the eyes, the ears of the soul, there's so much going on eating that, that once you change a habit in eating. That means that really is a proper change is not a minor cosmetic is a proper behavioral change, your neurons have changed, the pathways have changed. And that form has a cascade effect in everything else you do. That's why it makes sense for me, even if you don't like the work plan basis, that makes sense to me. There's a lot of people excited with that with changing data. Good, good. If you feel overwhelmed by the idea of changing your philosophies or acquiring a new philosophy, start with the diet because I know that once you've done that, it's gonna be easier then to go to the next step, rather than the other way around. Let's start with riding horses. So with cinema that will take less. So the time that is a good one to start with. But that's the issue don't stay that just is that the first step is what's more significant, might have more more influence in your life, but it's not by any means the last one, just the beginning of your journey.

James Taylor  39:02  

Well, Jody, thank you so much for coming on the show today. The book is called Ethical Vegan and we'll put links here so you can go and get a copy of the book. If you want to learn more about the middle the other work that you're doing just now I know you're involved in different types of campaigning and different types of other kind of writing other programs. Where's the best place to go to learn more about you and your work?

Jordi Casamitjana  39:22  

Well, I mean all social media you can just google me or just go to the Facebook jority because I'm trying to Facebook these are the term I use JC Costa in free time in the end. But because I'm in all social media now you can really find me through there.

James Taylor  39:40  

That's great. Well Jody, thank you so much we look forward to hopefully getting a chance to see you speak in person as well and and all the best i We look forward to it also checking out now your your fiction books. Now we've read the nonfiction side, we want to move on to the on to the fiction side. Thank you so much for coming on the Super creativity podcast.

Allison Burns  39:58  

Thank you so much God Thanks very much for helping.

James Taylor  40:02  

You can subscribe to the super creativity podcast on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there. Please leave us a review. I would really, really appreciate it. I'm James Taylor and you've been listening to the super creativity podcast.